ON
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The BAD NEWS
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2008
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All responses labeled ON DOCTRINE NOTE are by Gary A. Hand unless stated differently
#1
Dear Gary,
I am confused. I thought that as Christians, we are supposed to encourage and uplift our Christian
brothers and sisters. In fact i am sure that it is written that unless we are doing this then we should keep
our mouths closed.
Please tell me who commissioned you to publically criticise Brother Hagin, Brother Roberts, Brother
Copeland etc.
I read a list of your critique of these men and their so called teachings, but in all truth, you have totally
taken their words and miss quoted them.
God Himself mades us in His likeness and in His image. He ordained Adam to be the god of this world.
Adam in his disobedience, and in his ability to choose, handed that position to the deceiver, satan. Now
we were to be the god of this world, but we gave it up. Now you cannot argue or dispute this cause it is
a fact. Little g in god does not infer we are God.
The authority of mankind in this world was now given to satan who is now the god of this world.
Jesus only came to this earth for three reasons.
1) to save mankind from spiritual death
2) to retrieve those Saints locked up in Paradise
3) to restore Spiritual Authority back to mankind.
I don't know about you, but my bible tells me that Jesus' last words were that it was finished. What was
finished?
The redemption of mankind, the restoration of what was taken when Adam fell. What was taken when
Adam fell?
1) The ability to live forever spiritually and physically.
2) The ability to have full health
3) The ability to have all you need in every area of your life.
So what was restored when Jesus said it was finished?
1) The ability live forever spiritually. We are made in Gods image and God is spirit.
2) The ability to have full health. God created our bodies to heal themselves. eg. if you cut your finger,
it will heal itself.
Remember Jesus just touch the soldiers head after the ear had been cut off and instantly it was healed
as if nothing had happened.
3) The ability to have all you need.What do you need to live? i know i need a roof over my head, i need
food in my belly, clothes on my back money in my wallet and i know i need to have more than i need
so that I can give to others and their needs. If i only have enough, i am less likely to be a giver because
I would need that food or that money.
You see if I am going to follow Jesus, then I need to listen to his words and live by those words. Jesus
was the word. Jesus said when you see me you see the father.
Brother, everytime you open your mouth you create. God made us in his image, and in His likeness.
God did not create from a thought, He created from His words and He made us like Himself. We
create through our words.
If i speak words of sickness over my life, then sickness will enter my life. It is a fact whether you believe
that or not.
Kenneth Copeland would never claim to complete the work that Jesus did after the cross. If you
honestly believe that, then you have been deceived because his teachings and writings always point to
Jesus. Kenneth probably said that he could of gone to the cross but he could never have beaten satan
because only He who knew no sin could have taken our sin. And only He who was God could of
defeated satan. I think you just misunderstood what was said.
It is only through Jesus that we have the authority to speak to evil things and they must stop and flee.
The scriptures are very clear about that. And so is Kenneth Hagin, Kenneth Copeland, T D Jakes, and
all word of faith preachers.
God is not a man that He should lie.
Read your bible and realise that faith is God's doctrine He wrote the bible. Everything is done by faith.
When you fall in love with Jesus and Gods' Word you suddenly have hope. When you have hope, you
put your faith in God and His promises( His Word)
Man did not create a law of faith, God Did.
Does satan have greater authority over this earth?
No, he only has authority over the people in it that do not choose Jesus to be Lord and saviour of their
lives. Satans only reign is found in the minds of men and women. Hence, why we were told to choose
this day whom we will serve. satans power is not on the saved, but on those who choose to go a
different way than God.
This is what the Word teaches and what all faith preachers teach.
I do not know what you have personally experienced to make you so angry toward faith teachers or
why you feel it is your calling to attack these strong and courageous men of God, but there is no reward
in this.
If you truly believe in your heart that these men are wrong, then why not pray about it and trust God to
do the rest. I am sure that you know that God is far more powerful than any evil in the world.
You may say to me that someone needs to speak out to save all the "gullible" people in this world. I
would say to you, that God has not stopped these faith preachers because they are teaching a truth. A
truth that satan has been able to keep hidden for a very long time.
We have become such a watered down generation of people that we believe that if bad things happen
to us it is somehow in Gods plan. We, the church have even accepted this as truth, teach it from our
pulpits and even believe that sometimes we cannot know why God does what He does.
Brother, the deception is found in taking away from God's Word exactly what the word says.
Kenneth Copeland has been taken out of context in order to discredit him and his ministry. I know I
can recall this happening before. That is right, it happeneed to Jesus, when He was in Ministry, It
happened to the disciples, in fact Jesus Himself warned His disciples that they would suffer for the sake
of the Word.
I write this to You not as a chance to slap you around or to even have my say, but to encourage to
think and pray considerably before you continue to attack those brothers and sisters of the faith.
Remember that as often as you hurt a brother or sister in Christ, you are actually hurting Jesus Himself
because Jesus lives in them.
As far money is concerned, you must really find out the facts from more than just opinion. Can you tell
me how much money the Copelands have blessed into others lives? No , i suppose not. How many
other ministries have had financial support from his ministry?
If you become a plumber or an electrician, or a computer technician, would you expect to get paid for
what you do? Of course you would. You must live and pay your bills just like every one else.
So why is it suddenly a crime for a preacher to be paid and paid well for what he/she does? we have
people in the world who run big organisations that hold big postions and are paid huge sums of money
to do what they do. They are not under such a strong scrutiny as these faith teachers.
Being a preacher is a very demanding job. He is available to many people 24hrs a day and his job
requires many resources. How do you pay for these things?
If these preachers need to travel the quickest way is to fly.
If they have planes in their ministry, wouldn't you agree that they are necessary? I would.
I know for myself, when I go to church and i hear a great sermon, I will go and buy it to listen to later. I
pay for that Cd. Is that wrong? Of course not. I heard the sermon already for free even if i paid my
tithe, I did not pay for the Word. Did they get that CD that i buy for free? No, they had to pay for the
blank CD and the electricity to burn it.
If people can go to a Book shop and buy books on murder mysteries, biographies, Positive thinking
and any other topic you can think of, why is it wrong for faith preachers to sell books and DVD's and
CD's?
It isn't.
The only problem that is evident here is that 'feeling' people experience when there is 'envy' or
'jealousy'. The 'feeling' that makes us think that it is greedy or taking advantage of people.
How many people could buy books from faith preachers and read them and get saved into the
Kingdom Of God?
How many people would sit down read their books, meditate on their writings, line them up with the
Word and then have the light go on and suddenly understand. That is what all the books, tapes,cd's,
dvd's are all about. Yes they make these ministries money, but ministries cost money to run, just like the
tithe pays the bills of a church.
Please, Gary, I cannot tell you what to do because evrything you do is your choice. But, please rethink
your approach to your fellow Christians.
We are all here for a short time and we really only have one commission.
To go into all the world and to make disciples of all men.
God doesn't want us to waste our time shooting down our brothers and sisters. He wants us saving the
lost.
Gary,
I pray that God will bless your life in every area and that as you grow closer to Jesus you will see His
clear direction for your life. I pray that new doors will open and you will discover new and powerful
ways to bring people into the Kingdom of God. I pray for good health in your life and the life of your
family. I pray that all your needs will be met above and beyond so that you will be blessed and so you
will be a blessing to others. I pray for clarity in all your decisions and I pray for the peace that passes all
understanding to be upon your life.
In Jesus name I pray, Amen.
Australia
[34-Vol 1]
ON DOCTRINE NOTE:
Welcome to On Doctrine.
Thank you for your visit and message on the Contact page.
You have presented the contradiction regarding what you claim to believe and what you actually
believe. If criticism is forbidden to me, then it is also forbidden to you. I have never claimed to have
been commissioned by anyone in relation to the content of the On Doctrine website, so I will return the
same question to you regarding your criticism of me.
There are a number of statements that you have made and I will consider them in order:
1. "He ordained Adam to be the god of his world."
2. "Adam . . . handed that position (of god of this world) to the deceiver, satan."
3. "Now we were to be the god of this world, but we gave it up."
4. "The authority of mankind in this world was now given to satan."
"Jesus . . . came to this earth,"
5. " . . to restore Spiritual Authority back to mankind."
"What was restored when Jesus said it was finished?"
6. "The ability to live forever spiritually."
7. "The ability to have all you need in every area of your life."
8. "Brother, everytime you open your mouth you create."
9. "God did not create from a thought, he created from His words."
10. "We create through our words."
11. "It is only through Jesus that we have the authority to speak to evil things and they must stop."
12. "Man did not create a law of faith, God did."
13. S"atan's only reign is found in the minds of men and women."
14. "We have become such a watered down generation of people that we believe that if bad things
happen to us it is somehow in gods plan."
In relation to the above 14 statements, none of them have a biblical foundation. They are presented to
you by your teachers, but their foundation is in the revelations claimed to have been received by those
teachers, not the statements in the Scripture. A number of those statements are denied by the Scripture,
and to accept them as being true means that what God has stated in the Scripture becomes a lie. Your
theology is faced with the same problem as found in current Mormon doctrine. Mormon doctrine was
originally based on the Book of Mormon, however current Mormon theology and the elements of the
Mormon gospel cannot be found in the Book of Mormon, but are based on the pronouncements of
their "living prophets." The same process has occurred in relation to Word of Faith theology, because it
is not based on foundational Scripture, but on the pronouncements of past and present "prophets" who
are creating their own doctrines based on their claims of revelation from God. In reality they are writing
their own scripture, and if what they claim to have received through direct revelation is true, it should be
added to the Bible to make a more complete revelation. That is not acceptable.
POINTS 1, 2, 3, 4
Adam as the god of this world and authority given to Satan.
Please provide one biblical reference stating that God created Adam as a god and the god of this
world.
Please provide one biblical reference stating that Adam handed the position of god of this world to
Satan.
Please provide one biblical reference stating that the future progeny of Adam were to be gods of this
world.
Please provide one biblical reference stating that the authority of mankind in this world was given to
Satan.
Reading the biblical narrative, you will find that it was God who changed the relationship of Adam to
the earth, (the original relationship He had established Himself without the knowledge or
approval of Adam), from that of a representative ruler-caretaker to a servant of the earth
itself:
"Then God said, 'Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; let them have dominion
over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the air, and over the cattle, over all the earth and over every
creeping thing that creeps on the earth.'
So God created man in His own image; in the image of God He created him; male and female He
created them."
Genesis 1:26-27 (NKJV)
Not only was Adam's position determined before he was made by God, his place in the earth was also
determined by God, his position as a representative regent was granted by allowance from God and he
was also given a job as caretaker of the Garden of Eden, since he was not established as an absolute
ruler simply giving instructions to his minions:
"Then the Lord God took the man and put him in the garden of Eden to tend and deep it."
Genesis 2:15.
Adam was given instructions and orders requiring obedience, by which he was required to
acknowledge the preeminence and authority of God to make any determination that He should choose.
Adam was a subservient created being who could not act outside the parameters granted to him by His
creator and was subject to the penalties imposed by God in relation to disobedience:
"And the Lord God commanded the man, saying, 'Of every tree of the garden you may freely eat; but
of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall
surely die.'"
Genesis 2:16-17 (NKJV)
Adam and Eve were created in a lower position than the angelic beings that God had previously
created, who are not gods.
"What is man that You are mindful of him, and the son of man that You visit him? For You have made
him a little lower than the angels, and You have crowned him with glory and honor. You have made him
to have dominion over the works of Your hands; You have put all things under his feet, all sheep and
oxen - even the beasts of the field, the birds of the air, and the fish of the sea that pass through the paths
of the seas."
Psalm 8:4-8 (NKJV)
It was attempt of the highest angelic being, Satan who also was not a god, to usurp the place of
God:
"How you have fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! How you are cu down to the
ground, you who weakened the nations! For you have said in your heart: 'I will ascend into heaven, I
will exalt my throne above the stars of god; I will also sit on the mount of the congregation on the
farthest sides of the north; I will ascend above the heights of the clouds, I will be like the most High.'"
Isaiah 14:12-14 (NKJV)
It was Satan who made the same claim when he tempted Eve:
"Then the serpent said to the woman, 'You will not surely die. For God knows that in the day you eat of
it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like god, knowing good and evil.'"
Genesis 3:4 (NKJV)
If Eve and Adam were already gods, why did the serpent say that they would be like God, and
why didn't they know the difference between good and evil, since your teachers claim that they were
created as duplicates of God, and God seems to have known the difference?
Your teachers make the statements that you claim, but the Bible does not. They seem like proper
statements, because they conform to the manner in which you wish to view yourself and the position
you wish to assume in relation to authority over the physical and spiritual world, including the highest
and most powerful of God's angelic creations, Satan.
It was God who changed the relationship of Adam to the earth, not Adam ceding authority to
Satan:
"Then to Adam He said, 'Because you have heeded the voice of your wife, and have eaten from
the tree of which I commanded you, saying, ""You shall not eat of it."" Cursed
is the ground for your sake; in toil you shall eat of it all the days of your life.
Both thorns and thistles it shall bring forth for you, an you shall eat the herb of the field.
In the sweat of your face you shall eat bread till you return to the ground, for out of it you were taken;
for dust you are, and to dust you shall return.'"
Genesis 3:17-19 (NKJV).
Kenneth Copeland teaches that God has no authority to act in relation to the earth, except through a
person of faith, because to act against a world owned by Satan would be "illegal".
(Adam) "He was not subordinate to God ... was walking as a god with the authority of a
god. ... What he said went. What he did, counted. ...bowed his knee to Satan and put Satan up above
him, then there wasn't anything God could do about it, because a god had placed (Satan) there."
The Force of Love, tape 02-0028
"God's on the outside looking in. He doesn't have any legal entree into the earth. The thing
don't belong to Him. You see how sassy the Devil was in the presence of God in the book of Job? God
said, 'Where have you been?' Wasn't any of God's business. He [Satan] didn't even have to answer if
he didn't want to God didn't argue with him a bit! You see, this is the position that God's been in, might
say, 'Well, if God's running things He's doing a lousy job of it.' He hadn't been running 'em, except
when He's just got, you know, a little bit of a chance."
Image of God in You III, Kenneth Copeland, audiotape 011403, side 1
Supposedly, according to Kenneth Copeland, at the point that Adam and Eve sinned, their
positions as gods were transferred to Satan, so he became the god and owner of the earth and the
"No Trespassing" signs went up preventing God from acting in relation to the earth.
However, at the same time, Adam and Eve were not persons of faith, and in point of fact, there were
no persons of faith in the earth through which God could work, but, amazingly enough, God seemed to
violate that "legal" prohibition and came to the earth after the fact (an earth which Kenneth
Copeland claims He no longer owned and over which He had no control) and cursed Adam and Eve,
the serpent, Satan, the earth itself and every living animal - and Satan never made a claim that God had
no "legal" right to do what He did.
Kenneth Copeland's teaching is not only a little shaky, it is absolute nonsense because it does not
conform to the Scriptural account of the fall, but it also does not conform to reality. Apparently,
according to Kenneth Copeland, it is "illegal" for God to act against a world owned by Satan, but it was
not "illegal" for Satan to act against a world and human beings created and owned by God. Where are
there any statements in the Scripture that confirm Kenneth Copeland's claim? Why is it that you do not
follow the logical conclusion of Kenneth Copeland's absurd statement?
Satan was in the earth in his fallen state prior to the fall of Adam and Eve and he was placed there by
God as a result of his fall. Not only was that the case, but his authority in the earth was subject to the
good pleasure of God and the authority of Jesus Christ, prior to the atonement:
"And the Lord said to Satan, 'Behold, all that he has is in your power (hand); only do not lay a
hand on his person.'"
Job 1:12
"And He said to them, 'I saw Satan fall like lighting from heaven.'"
Luke 10:18-19 (NKJV).
cf. Isaiah 14:12-17
The same issue is found in the incidents in Job, that is seen at the fall of Adam and Eve. Satan was
commanded to appear before God, he was asked a question by God which he did not refuse to answer
and he was obedient to the restrictions placed on his treatment of Job - and, again, he never made any
claim that God had no "legal" right to institute any prohibition on his actions. Mankind can
be as "sassy" to God they might wish and not suffer any immediate consequences, just as
Satan has been given the same privilege since his fall as well. Kenneth Copeland's teaching once again
fails the test.
According to Kenneth Copeland, the only difference between "little god" and "God" is a matter of
knowledge. The more knowledge that is acquired, the greater become the abilities of the "little god"..
"'Well, He created all those planets, how come you can't create something?' You don't know as much
about it as He does. He has a greater working knowledge of that faith than you do. But we're learning.
Our time is coming. And in some ways its already here."
Kenneth Copeland, Cornerstone Church with John Hagee, San Antonio, Texas, August 18, 1999.
Kenneth Copeland claims that his abilities already include the capability of giving life to dead
plants:
SEE: The Tree That Faith Grew
www.ondoctrine.com/unquotes/copek002.htm
So, the "little god" is a creator of life from nothing, just like God, although he cannot do the same with
human beings, yet. But, we only have Kenneth Copeland's word in the matter without any proof that he
ever created life in any entity, just as you have no proof that he has ever received a revelation from
God.
Kenneth Copeland speaks exactly what he means:
"You really cannot ever come to that place were you let this mind be in you which was also in Christ
Jesus, who thought it not robbery to be called equal with God. Let this mind be in Kenneth Copeland,
Oh my goodness, Ah! that thinks its not robbery to be called equal with God."
Kenneth Copeland, Believer's Voice of Victory, Monday 29th January 2001, GOD TV
Benny Hinn has weighed in on the issue as well, stating:
"Now are you ready for some real revelation knowledge? OK. Now watch this: He laid aside His
divine form. . . so one day I would be clothed on earth with the divine form. Kenneth Hagin has a
teaching. A lot of people have problems with it. Yet it is absolute truth. Kenneth Copeland has a
teaching. Many Christians have put holes in it, but it's divine truth. Hagin and Copeland say: You are
god. Ye are gods. 'Oh! I can't be god.' Hold it. Let's bring balance to this teaching. The balance is
being taught by Hagin. It's those that repeat him that mess it up. the balance is being taught by
Copeland, who is my dear friend, but it's those that repeat what he says hat are messing it up.
You see there brother? When Jesus was on earth, the Bible says that first he disrobed Himself of
the divine form. He, the limitless God, became a man, that we men, may become as He is".
Benny Hinn, Our Position in Christ (Orlando: Orlando Christian Center, 1990), cassette tape
#A031190
Benny Hinn, along with Kenneth Hagin and Kenneth Copeland have integrated Mormon
exaltation theology into their teaching, and is noted by the last sentence quoted from Benny Hinn, which
represents the popular Mormon saying, "As man is, God once was. As God is, man may
become.
Benny Hinn is wrong on two counts, because man cannot attain to godhood and will not be clothed in
the divine form. The only recourse he had to support his statements was the claim that he had
received "revelation knowledge," because his statements are not found in the Scripture.
The definitions that you accept are fundamental to the error of your position. You believe that being
made in the image of God is the same as having or being made with the same nature as God and then
you erroneously assert that God was making an exact duplicate of Himself when He created Adam, an
assumption that is not found in the Scripture but is only asserted by your teachers.
"God's reason for creating Adam was His desire to reproduce Himself... He was not a little
like God. He was not almost like God. He was not subordinate to God even. Adam is as much like
God as you could get, just the same as Jesus. ...Adam, in the Garden of Eden, was God manifested in
the flesh."
Following the Faith of Abraham, Kenneth Copeland, Kenneth Copeland Ministries, Fort
Worth, Texas, 1989, tape 01-3001, side 1.
If God was attempting to make an exact duplicate of Himself, then He did a very poor job. You
may claim that being a "little god"; "does not infer that we are God," but that is not what Kenneth
Copeland claims. He states that Adam was "God manifested in the flesh" which makes him the equal to
Jesus Christ and Jesus Christ is the equal to God because Jesus Christ is part of the Trinitarian
godhead. Since you are claiming that you have been restored to the position of Adam before the fall,
then you are claiming that you are a god, the same kind of god that Kenneth Copeland claims that
Adam was and that is a god who is the same as Jesus Christ who is the same as the Creator God,
because He was the Creator. Adam was not made as a duplicate of God, since Adam sinned and God
cannot. The only duplicates are those members of the Trinity and are the Father, Jesus Christ and Holy
Spirit. There are no others who are equal to or even approach equality to the members of the
Godhead. The problem is, you don't know what Kenneth Copeland is teaching and you don't accept
what the Bible says about the nature of created humanity.
What you are actually accepting is the spin adopted by Kenneth Copeland and others, by which a form
of Mormon pre-existence theology is grafted into the creation narrative. In Mormon theology, god is
actually an exalted man who is the same size as an actual human being (sound familiar to Kenneth
Copeland's description of God?) who has a wife and they procreate spiritual children who are the
spirits of human beings and are of the same nature as themselves because they are literal children.
However, Adam was not procreated, he was created apart from the substance of God and from
elements created by God that were not God or from His nature. The Christian is a child of God by
adoption, Ephesians 1:5, not by descent. God adopts Christians as His children, because human beings
are not the same as He and are not of His lineal descent.
POINT 5, 6, 7
I don't have any problem with reasons 1 and 2 of the three regarding why Jesus came to earth. But
the third is quite problematic, because you presume that the atonement is about "Spiritual
Authority" and the ability to create your own world according to how you define it to be, which
you specify in your next statement as being the restoration of what was taken (from Adam by Satan)
when he fell.
However, since you assume that the atonement was about your physical needs and your authority and
ability to attain to a comfort level which you define to be needful and sufficient, then we part company.
You must deal with the reality that there are many Christians throughout history and living today who
have not and do not have the things that might be needful for life to continue, because they are or were
starving or they are or were martyrs or they are or were physically or mentally handicapped or sick
unto death. You may wish to explain those situations, like your teachers do, by claiming those people
just didn't have enough faith, but that is a cruel assertion that does not have a biblical foundation and is
an explanation that fails the test. You are forced to consign all of the apostles and every subsequent
Christian throughout history, who became ill and died or who was forced into poverty and death by
oppressive governments, into the category of sub-standard faithless failures. Unfortunately you have not
considered the logical conclusions of your beliefs, so you do not understand where your beliefs
ultimately take you.
If the atonement brings immediate salvation, why doesn't it bring immediate, wealth, health and spiritual
authority? Why is it that Salvation, which is the greatest and most important element of the atonement,
occurs immediately, while those other elements must be sought after for years, while individuals seek to
buy the faith through their giving to ministries in order to obtain what it is claimed that they already
have? There is something very wrong in that approach to the atonement.
Jesus Christ never promised full health or the supply for every need in this life. If He had made that
promise, why was Stephen martyred instead of living the good life, Acts 7? Why did Jesus Christ not
heal the apostle Paul? The apostle Paul asked Him to do so, 2 Corinthians 12:7-10, but the reality is
that He told the apostle Paul that He would not be healed. Why wasn't the apostle Paul rich so he
would not have to work in order to support the ministry, Acts 18:3; 20:34; 1 Corinthians 4:11-13; 1
Thessalonians 2:9? He wasn't able to speak to his wallet so it would be filled with money? Why was
Timothy's stomach ailment not healed, 1 Timothy 5:23? Why didn't the apostle Paul heal Trophimus, 2
Timothy 4:20? Why did the apostle Paul travel throughout Asia for years, 1 Corinthians 16, taking a
collection for the saints in Jerusalem who were starving and persecuted instead of teaching them the
means of obtaining the riches, health and security that they could have had through the use of their faith
and the proper application of the atonement? Was he uniformed about the magical means? Then there
were the Macedonians who gave "out of their deep poverty" in order to provide for the
saints at Jerusalem, 2 Corinthians 8:1-5. Why didn't they give "out of their abounding
riches" which, according to your theology, they could have obtained by the use of their faith?
Were they "less likely to be a giver" because of their poverty? Did they bring poverty into
their lives because they had negative thoughts and spoke negative words, but were still able to give?,
"For I bear witness that according to their ability, yes, and beyond their ability, they were freely
willing, imploring us with much urgency that we would receive the gift and the fellowship of the
ministering to the saints. And not only as we had hoped, but they first gave themselves to the Lord, and
then to us by the will of God," 2 Corinthians 8:3-5 (NKJV).
Since they were so poor, they should have been less like to give, but they gave in spite of their poverty.
The Corinthians had every good thing, including wealth, but they were less likely to give and had to be
instructed by the apostle Paul. The issue goes straight back to the impoverished and persecuted
believers in Jerusalem, who, according to your theology must have missed the faith message and chose
to be in a destitute position and required help from outside sources because of their lack of faith, and
none of the apostles were able to discern the difficulty or realize the solution. Then, there are those
apostles, none of who were rich or had enough, most of whom were martyred and even the apostle
John was exiled on the barren island of Patmos and was so frail during the last days of his life at
Ephesus that he was carried to church. Even the apostle that Jesus loved seems to have missed the faith
message.
So, what do you think that Kenneth Copeland claims that he could have done if he had gone to the
cross? Obviously he could not have died for the sins of the world, because he teaches that the
atonement was accomplished in hell, not on the cross.
- "Now it wasn't the physical death on the cross that paid the price for sin, because if it had
of been any prophet of God that had died for the last couple of thousand years before that could ave
paid that price. It wasn't physical death anybody could do that." -- Kenneth Copeland
The reality is that what you are being taught is that when Adam sinned, he not only forfeited the
earth to Satan, he forfeited his God nature to Satan and took on the nature of Satan. So, salvation for
you is the removal of the actual nature of Satan from man and the restoration of the actual nature of
God within man. In other words, the death of Jesus Christ is said to be a payment to Satan in order to
obtain mankind's God nature from him. This is said to have occurred on the cross, when Jesus Christ
took on the actual sin nature of Satan, and then He went to hell for three days where He was tortured
by Satan and then He "died spiritually,' requiring that He be "born again" so
He could defeat the devil.
The spirit of Jesus Christ was not under the control of Satan, it was under the control of God according
to the statement of Jesus Christ:
"And when Jesus had cried out with a loud voice, He said, 'Father, into Your hands I commit My
spirit.' Having said this, He breathed His last."
Luke 23:46 (NKJV)
The statement of Peter:
"who when He was reviled, did not revile in return; when He suffered, He did not threaten, but
committed Himself to Him who judges righteously. . ."
1 Peter 2:23 (NKJV)
Kenneth Copeland teaches what is known as the "Ransom Theory" of the atonement, and
presumes that Satan had some type of right of appeasement by which he required a payment for the
return of godhood to man or else God could not provide salvation. That is a heretical belief not
supported in the Scripture, but is specifically denied by the direct statement of God:
- "For who is like me? Who will arraign me? And who is that shepherd who will withstand
Me?'
- Jeremiah 50:44 (NKJV)
The sin of Adam and Eve was against God, not Satan, so Satan as the instigator and participant in
the first sin of mankind, and as the first sinner himself, has no claim on God. It is God who has every
claim on Satan, from such claims he cannot escape. It was God who pronounced the curses on Adam
and Eve, the serpent and on Satan, and Satan never asserted that God had no legal right to do so. God
does not need a right or some legal ruling in order to act, because He is the right and He is the
law.
Actually, Kenneth Copeland is saying that he could have defeated Satan. There is no other conclusion.
You either take Kenneth Copeland for what he says or you do not, and if you do not, you are only
kidding yourself. According to Kenneth Copeland, when Jesus Christ "whipped Satan" in
hell, He had already divested Himself of any aspects of Deity and was just a man, just like Kenneth
Copeland, and as a result Kenneth Copeland claims that he could have done the same thing as Jesus
Christ and he tells you that you could have done the same thing.
- "Don't be disturbed when people accuse you of thinking you are God ... They crucified Me
for
- claiming I was God. I didn't claim that I was God; I just claimed that I walked with Him and that
- He was in Me. Hallelujah! That's what you're doing ..."
- "Take Time to Pray," Believer's Voice of Victory, February 1987, p.9
Again, Kenneth Copeland says exactly what he means:
- "The Spirit of God spoke to me and He said, 'Son, realize this. Now follow me in this and
don't let your tradition trip you up.' He said, 'Think this way - a twice-born man whipped
Satan in his own domain.' And I threw my Bible down like that. I said, 'What?' He said, 'A born-again
man defeated Satan, the firstborn of many brethren defeated him.' He said, 'You are the very image, the
very copy of that one.' I said, 'Goodness, gracious sakes alive!' And I began to see what had gone on
in there, and I said, 'Well now you don't mean, you couldn't dare mean, that I could have done the
same thing?' He said, 'Oh yeah, if you'd had the knowledge of the Word of God that He did, you could
have done the same thing, 'cause you're a reborn man too.'"
- Substitution and Identification, tape 00-0202, side 2
This teaching regarding Jesus Christ taking on the nature of Satan and dying spiritually violates the
nature of the Godhead. Jesus Christ is God the Son,
- "And His name will be called Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father,
Prince of Peace," Isaiah 9:6.
Jesus Christ is the second person of the Godhead and He possesses all of the attributes of the
Godhead in concert with the Father and the Holy Spirit. He is omniscient, omnipresent, omnipotent and
holy. He is immutable (unchanging), Malachi 3:6. He is unchanging in His essence, for to change would
mean that He would not have been deity,
- "Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and comes down from the Father of
lights, with whom there is no variation or shadow of turning," James 1:17 (NKJV). "
Jesus Christ is sinless:
- "Which of you convicts me of sin? And if I tell the truth, why do you not believe
Me?"
- John 8:46 (NKJV)
Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today and forever," Hebrews 13:8 (NKJV). But you,
and Kenneth Hagin, Kenneth Copeland, Benny Hinn and the numerous other Word of Faith teachers
claim that Jesus Christ and the Godhead do change, that the Godhead becomes evil and perverted by
incorporating within itself the very nature of Satan, requiring that it be "born again,"
because you cannot separate Jesus Christ from the Godhead. If Jesus Christ took on the sin nature of
Satan, then so did the Godhead and so did the members of the Godhead. Kenneth Copeland teaches
that God does change and the Godhead changes, because he claims that the Godhead can be
separated from itself - broken as to its very innate nature:
- "The spirit of Jesus accepting that sin, and making it to be sin, he separated from his God,
and in that moment, he's a mortal man. Capable of failure. Capable of death."
- Kenneth Copeland, What Happened from the Cross to the Throne? (Fort Worth: Kenneth
Copeland Ministries), cassette tape #02-0017
It is not that Jesus Christ became just a man while on the cross, Kenneth Copeland says that Jesus
Christ told him that He was not God at any time while on the earth:
- "Don't be disturbed when people accuse you of thinking you are God ... They crucified Me
for
- claiming I was God. I didn't claim that I was God; I just claimed that I walked with Him and that
- He was in Me. Hallelujah! That's what you're doing ..."
- "Take Time to Pray," Believer's Voice of Victory, February 1987, p.9
Kenneth Copeland is inserting another form of Mormon doctrine into his teaching, because the
Mormon godhead is composed of three separate gods who associate with each other by choice and
are one only in purpose. The Christian Godhood is much different, because it is one God within which
are three persons, who are not one by association but are one in being. A definition of the Godhead is
One, indivisible as to its very nature. It is not possible that any part of the Godhead could not be less
than very God at any point, because the Godhood is one in unity.
So, you have a Jesus Christ who divested Himself of His deity and became just a man, a Jesus Christ
who's spirit became actual sin and a Jesus Christ who was removed from the Godhead. So, since Jesus
Christ became the worst vile sinner, who accomplished the atonement for Him? Again, you have not
thought about the logical conclusions of what you have been taught and believe about Jesus Christ and
the Godhead. The teaching that Jesus Christ at one point was not God is heresy of the highest
degree.
Your teachers claim that the atonement was accomplished in hell, a claim that they all make without a
biblical foundation to do so. Your teachers claim that Jesus Christ was tortured in hell by Satan and the
demons and then died spiritually in hell, The Bible makes no such statements. I will accept one verse as
a confirmation. The Bible says that the atonement was accomplished on the cross, not in hell:
- "And you, who once were alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now
he has reconciled in the body of His flesh though death, to present you holy, and blameless, and above
reproach in His sight . . ." Colossians 1:21-22 (NKJV)
- "Therefore Jesus also, that He might sanctify the people with his own blood, suffered
outside the gate." Hebrews 13:12 (NKJV)
- "By that will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once
for all." Hebrews 10:10 (NKJV).
- cf. Colossians 1:20, 1 Corinthians 1:17, Ephesians 2:16
POINTS 8, 9, 10, 11
Going back to the Scripture, you will find that you and your teachers have redefined the manner in
which God creates in order to support your theology. You define Jesus Christ's act of creating as
having "created from His words." And you claim that "He made us like
Himself," therefore "We create through our words." Those relationships are
incorrect, because your definition of the manner in which Jesus Christ creates is deeply flawed. You
adopt those definitions as the means of creation, because you believe that words are containers of
power which is faith, and if you use the right words and apply your faith you can be a creator just like
God, which is exactly what Kenneth Copeland is teaching. In your theology, words convey the creative
power, and that power exists apart from yourself and apart from God - creative acts require the power
of faith contained in words to be accomplished. In your belief system, even Jesus Christ and God are
subject to the proper use of words in order to create, and, in fact, according to Kenneth Copeland,
even God had to use faith in order to create, which is another of his non-biblical teachings.
The Scripture has a very different definition of how the creation was accomplished:
". . . who being the brightness of His glory and the express image of His person, and upholding all
things by the word of His power . . ." Hebrews 1:3a (NKJV).
There is a universe of difference between the "power of His word" and the "word of
His power". You presume a theology based on the idea that Jesus Christ created by the power
contained in words, but the Scripture says that He stated words that represented the creative power
contained within Himself. Words are not the creative power, the power is the creative nature of Jesus
Christ and is represented by one of His innate attributes of omnipotence - all powerful.
"Alleluia! For the Lord God Omnipotent reigns!" Revelation 19:6b (NKJV).
Where in the Scripture is it stated that Christians have the ability to speak to evil things and they must
stop and flee? I will accept one verse. If that is actually the case, then why is there evil in the world?
Why is Satan still active? There have been so many claims of undiscerning Christians that they can
"bind the devil" that are too numerous to have been counted, yet Satan is not bound by any
words that Christians have said or might say. Even Jesus Christ did not bind the devil and the apostles
made no attempt to do it either. You are presuming that Christians have powers and knowledge to
handle those powers, which they do not. The Scripture says that Christians are to resist the devil by
means of the armor of God which is the Scripture itself. If you believe that you can go on the offensive
with the devil and win, then you have already lost the battle:
"Finally my brethren, be strong in the Lord and in the power of His might. Put on the whole
armor of God, that you may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil." Ephesians
6:10-11 (NKJV)
"Therefore submit to God. Resist the devil and he will flee from you." James 4:7
(NKJV)
"Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil walks about like a roaring lion, seeking
whom he may devour. Resist him, steadfast in the faith, knowing that the same sufferings are
experienced by your brotherhood in the world." 1 Peter 5:8 (NKJV)
POINT 12
The law of Faith.
Where does the Scripture state that there is a Law of Faith in relation to your creative ability?
The law of faith is defined by the apostle Paul:
"Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? Of works? No, but by the law of faith.
Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith apart from the deeds of the law" Romans
3:27 (NKJV)
The Law of Faith is in relation to salvation, not your ability to be a creator.
Your teachers claim that faith is an entity off force, that can be harnessed and used like electricity. It is
claimed to be the power of the universe and is so powerful that God Himself had to use faith in order to
create the universe and man. So, as a Creator, God is subservient to faith and cannot create without it's
use. Kenneth Copeland is currently the most famous proponent of that teaching.
- "You have the same creative faith and ability on the inside of you that
God used when he created the heavens and the earth."
- Kenneth Copeland, 'Inner Image of the Covenant,' side 2.
- "God used words when He created the heaven and the earth....Each time God spoke, He
released His faith -- the creative power to bring His words to pass."
- Kenneth Copeland, The Power of the Tongue (Fort Worth: KCP Publications, 1980), 4.
In Kenneth Copeland's doctrine, faith is greater than God, because without the use of faith, God
has no power to act or create. However, faith is not greater than God and God did not use faith to
create any entity, whether it be this universe or any creature. There is no verse in the entire Bible that
states that God ever used faith in relation to any creative act. I challenge any Word of Faith teacher or
believer to find any verse or passage in the Bible that states that God used faith to create any entity or
that He must or does use faith in any aspect of His existence in relation to His power or the
implementation of His will. God is not subject to faith; God is the source of faith, Romans 12:3,
Ephesians 2:8, and the object of faith, John 14:1, Acts 20:21.. Any claim that God is subject to faith or
that faith has any power or authority over God is false and heretical teaching.
POINT 13
I understand your point about Satan's reign being in the minds of men and women, and I would
agree with you as far as you go, but his reign is not so simple and is much more comprehensive than
that. Satan reigns in numerous realms:
1. Spiritual kingdom - as the leader of one-third of the angelic host who chose to follow him in
opposition to the kingdom of God and His angelic host. There is a continual battle going on in the
heavenly realm between the forces of Satan and the forces of God about which we know absolutely
nothing and over which Christians have no power, Daniel 10:13-14, with a final battle that moves from
that realm to earth during the tribulation. Revelation 12:4.
2. Physical kingdom - the ruler of this world, John 12:31; 14:30.
3. Philosophical kingdom - the god of this age, originator of the world system including economics,
philosophy, education and false religion, 2 Corinthians 4:4.
4. Personal kingdom - ruler over death and the souls of the unregenerate, Hebrews 2:14, subject to the
sanctions imposed by God, Job 1:11-12; 2:6.
Be very careful that you do not underestimate the power of Satan and his angels, and at the same time
overestimate the power that you might believe you have over them. Even the angels of God cannot
oppose Satan without the power of God and even require the intervention of the archangel of God in
order to carry out their missions without opposition, Daniel 10:13.
POINT 14
I understand why you adopt this particular position, because it clearly represents how you view the
authority that you presume to have as a god. However, you are attempting to preempt the authority of
God to deal with His creation as He sees fit. In order to support your position, you propose that the
plans of God can only be "good" by your definition, but not by His. When you claim that
you know assuredly that "bad" things cannot have their origin with God, then you apply
your own thoughts and theology that are denied by the Scripture itself. There is suffering, persecution
and illness that will not be eliminated or mediated simply because a person is a
Christian.
1. There is some suffering because of the sovereign will and action of God, just as
everything that happens in this world is a result of the sovereign, determined plan of God, to the end
that His purpose will be accomplished and not our own personal wants and desires.
"As He passed by, He saw a man blind from birth. And His disciples asked
Him, 'Rabbi, who sinned, this man or his parents, that he would be born blind?' Jesus answered, 'It was
neither that this man sinned nor his parents; but it was so that the works of God might be displayed in
him,'" John 9:1-3.
"The Lord said to him, 'Who has made man's mouth? Or who makes him mute or deaf, or seeing
or blind? Is it not I, the Lord?'" Exodus 4:11
2. Some suffering is a result of the direct act of Satan under the authority of God.
"Then the Lord said to Satan, 'Behold, all that he has is in your power, only do not
put forth your hand on him.' So Satan departed from the presence of the Lord," Job
1:12.
"So the Lord said to Satan, 'Behold, he is in your power, only spare his life.' Then Satan went out
from the presence of the Lord and smote Job with sore boils from the sole of his foot to the crown of
his head," Job 2:6-7.
3. Some suffering and death is a result of the chastening of God, such as the situation in the
Corinthian church, because the Lord's Supper has been observed in an unworthy manner, when
Christians have not considered their sin and repented.
"For this cause many are weak and sickly among you, and many sleep (are
dead)," 1 Corinthians 11:30.
The Corinthian church was the example, because they came to their love feasts, which concluded with
the Lord's Supper being celebrated, and the event became a debauched monstrosity, even to the point
of many becoming drunk, cf. 1 Corinthians 11:17-22, 33-34.
4. There is suffering and death, because Christians are not immune from the effects of the fallen creation
in which they live.
"These things I have spoken to you, so that in Me you may have peace. In the
world you have tribulation, but take courage; I have overcome the world," John 16:33.
". . . [W]e ourselves speak proudly of you among the churches of God for your perseverance
and faith in the midst of all your persecutions and afflictions which you endure. This is a plain indication
of God's righteous judgment so that you will be considered worthy of the kingdom of God, for which
indeed you are suffering. For after all it is only just for God to repay with affliction those who afflict you,
and to give relief to you who are afflicted and to us as well when the Lord Jesus will be revealed from
heaven with His mighty angels in flaming fire . . ," 2 Thessalonians 14-7.
If healing, prosperity and safety are part of the gifts to every believer, then there
must be some Christian, somewhere in the world, who has appropriated those gifts in their life, who is
healthy, rich, safe, has never died and is centuries old, because death itself is a product of disease. I
have been waiting to meet that person, but they seem to be very reclusive, or else no Christian has ever
been able to claim those gifts that are said to be promised but, in reality, are never granted. Even the
apostles could not accomplish that feat.
Persecution will accompany belief:
John 16:33, Luke 21:12, John 15:20-21.
Believers are persecuted in place of Jesus Christ
Zechariah 2:8, Acts 9:4-5, Romans 8:36
Persecution for the sake of Christ is blessed
Matthew 5:10, Luke 6:22-23
Believers suffer for the sake of God
Jeremiah 15:15
All that live Godly in Christ will suffer
2 Timothy 3:12
Preachers of truth will be persecuted
Galatians 5:11
Persecution can and will result in death (Saul)
Acts 2:24
Persecution does not separate from Jesus Christ
Romans 8:35, 8:38-39
Christians are not immune to suffering:
Christians suffer because they are called for that purpose, 1 Peter 2:21.
Christians suffer for doing right, because it may be God's will, 1 Peter 3:17.
Christians suffer because it is the will of God, 1 Peter 4:19.
Christians suffer for the name of Jesus Christ, Matthew 10:22; Mark 13:13; Acts 5:41.
Christians suffer because they suffer for Jesus Christ, 2 Corinthians 1:6.
Christians suffer because it has been granted by God to suffer for Jesus Christ, Philippians 1:29.
Christians suffer for the sake of Christ and are blessed, Luke 6:22-23.
Christians suffer so that they may glorify God, 1 Peter 4:16.
Christians suffer because they are children of God and heirs with Jesus Christ so that they "may
also be glorified with Him," Romans 8:17.
Christians suffer for the sake of the gospel, 2 Timothy 1:8.
Christians suffer as a representative of Jesus Christ, Luke 21:17, John 15:18-22.
Christians suffer because they follow Jesus Christ, Luke 21:12
Christians suffer because it leads to opportunities to testify, Luke 21:13.
Christians suffer because they represent righteousness, 1 John 3:11-13.
Christians suffer because they do not belong to this world, John 15:19; 17:14-16.
Christians suffer because they desire to live godly lives, 2 Timothy 3:12, Hebrews 11:25.
Christians suffer so they will depend on the grace of the Lord, 2 Corinthians 12:9.
Christians suffer so that they will not exalt themselves, 2 Corinthians 12:7.
Christians suffer so that they may comfort others when they are afflicted, 2 Corinthians 1:4.
Christians suffer so that they may testify of the comfort that God gives, 2 Corinthians 1:4.
Christians suffer so that they may know God, Job 42:1-8.
Christians suffer so that the words God speaks may be found to be true, Job 1:22.
Christians suffer in order to learn how to live the Christian life, Philippians 4:12.
Christians suffer so that they will not be ashamed of the gospel of Christ, 2 Timothy 1:8-12.
Christians suffer so that the gospel may be preached, 2 Timothy 3:8-10.
Christians suffer on behalf of others, Ephesians 3:13.
Christians suffer because they are not exempt from the fallen creation, John 16:33.
Christians suffer in order to gain perseverance, Romans 5:3.
Christians suffer as a result of sin, Acts 5:1-10.
Christians suffer for abusing the Lord's supper, 1 Corinthians 11:30.
Is it right that Jesus Christ would suffer for all Christians but they decide they will not suffer for Him?
It would be presumptuous to state that the reason Christians are in a place of suffering, is
because they do not express qualifying faith or because of sin in their lives or both. That is knowledge
that cannot be known and an assumption of convenience, designed to absolve those who claim healing
powers of their responsibility by their failure to perform those miracles in the same manner as they were
accomplished by Jesus Christ and the apostles, and to explain why, in the real world, all Christians are
not healthy, wealthy and safe. It is perfectly acceptable to pray to God in order to request the things
that we all believe are appropriate in our lives, but it must also be recognized that we are not sovereign
and God is - that is why He is God and we are not, and is why we must always defer to His will, in
spite of the fact that many of your teachers claim that we should not. You seem to adopt Kenneth
Hagin's unbiblical statements on the subject:
- "Because we didn't understand what Jesus said, and because we've been religiously
brainwashed instead of New Testament-taught, we watered down the promises of God and tacked on
something that Jesus didn't say, and added on something else to it: "Well, He will all right if it's
His will, but it might not be His will, " people have said. And yet, you don't find that kind of talk in
the New Testament,"
- Kenneth Hagin, How Jesus Obtained His Name, Tulsa: Rhema, cassette tape #44H01.
- "It is unscriptural to pray, 'If it is the will of God.' When you put an 'if in your prayer, you
are praying in doubt,"
- Kenneth Hagin, Exceedingly Growing Faith, Tulsa: Faith Library, 1983, p. 10.
"This is the confidence which we have before Him, that, if we ask
anything according to His will, He hears us. And we know that he hears us in whatever we ask, we
know that we have the requests which we have asked from Him,"
1 John 5:14-15.
The words of Jesus Christ
Matthew 6: 10, Matthew 7-21, Matthew 12:50, Matthew 18:14, Matthew 26:39, 42, 44, Mark 3:35,
Mark 14-36, 39, Luke 22:42, John 4:34, John 5:30, John 6:38-40.
The words of Luke:
Acts 22:14.
The words of the apostle John
John 1:13, 1 John 2:17
The words of the apostle Peter
1 Peter 2:15, 1 Peter 3:17, 1 Peter 4:2, 19
The words of the apostle Paul
Acts 18:21; Romans 1:10; Romans 12:2; Romans 15:32; 1 Corinthians 1:1; 1 Corinthians 4:19; 2
Corinthians 1:1; 2 Corinthians 8:5; Galatians 1:4; Ephesians 1:1, 5, 9, 11; Ephesians 5-17; Ephesians
6:6; Philippians 2:13; Colossians 1:1, 9; Colossians 4:12; 1 Thessalonians 4:3-8; 1 Thessalonians 5:18;
2 Timothy 1:1.
The words of Ananias
Acts 22:14
The words of the writer of Hebrews
Hebrews 10:36
It is our human depravity that asserts that our will should be God's will, but just the opposite is
true, because God's will should be our will. Even Job realized the truth of this issue:
"But he said to her, 'You speak as one of the foolish women speaks. Shall we indeed accept
good from God, and shall we not accept adversity?' In all this Job did not sin with his lips." Job
2:10 (NKJV)
I ask the same question in numerous articles on the website: Who is the authority in the matter, your
teachers or the Scripture?
I don't think that I have ever said that it is wrong for ministers to sell tapes, CD's or books. So I don't
understand that aspect of your criticism. As I have indicated to others who have presented the almost
identical arguments as you, a free sermon or shelves full of books, tapes and CD's of false teaching are
no benefit and no bargain.
#2
Those who warn us against the dangers of cults are often more dangerous than the cults they warn us
against.
United States
[38-Vol 1]
#3
BIBLE
It is complete and infallible in the original languages
So, the volume I have in English, where Jesus the Christ says "Thy Word is Truth", is not
Truth?
He said I must live "BY EVERY WORD THE PROCEEDS FROM GOD'S MOUTH".
Your statement is ERROR, GOD ALMIGHTY PROMISED ME EVERY WORD, or He would not
have told me to LIVE BY EVERY WORD!
Is your god to WEAK to preserve EVERY WORD unto this day?
I rejoice that MY GOD is ALMIGHTY, and PRESERVED HIS TRUTH FOR ME!
MEN LIE, GOD CANNOT!
A WISE man said "DO NOT believe what men say about the WORD, but DO believe what the
WORD says about men"!
Romans 3:4 God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written
Thus you are LIARS, your own words prove you to be liars.
In the service of the TRUTH, the LIVING WORD, JESUS CHRIST,
United States
[41-Vol 1]
ON DOCTRINE NOTE:
You are trying to make an argument against the wrong point. I have never said that the words of God
are not truth. What I said was, Mark 16:9-20 was not written by Mark, so the passage cannot be
presumed to be Scripture.
When Jesus said, "'Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceeds from the mouth
of God,'" He was quoting Deuteronomy 8:3. When Deuteronomy was penned, the entire Scripture was
not yet written. Probably only the Pentateuch existed, while the rest of the Old Testament had not
occurred. In that case, only part of the words from the mouth of God had been recorded, so believers
in that time did not have the words that would later be recorded and would be spoken to future
generations, and did not have the words of Jesus Christ in the New Testament like you have now. God
did not promise you that you have in your Bible every word spoken by God, or even every word
spoken by Jesus Christ. That is not even the issue in relation to Mark 16.
"And there are also many other things which Jesus did, which if they were written in detail, I suppose
that even the world itself would not contain the books that would be written."
John 21:25
"Therefore many other signs Jesus also performed in he presence of the disciples, which are not written
in this book; but these have been written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of
God; and that believing you may have life in His name."
John 20:30-31
The Bible contains everything necessary for salvation and the Christian life, even if the book of Mark
did not exist. Do you think that the Bible always existed in the form in which you find it today? The
book of Revelation was not completed by the apostle John until approximately 96 A.D., which is about
sixty years after the resurrection of Jesus Christ. The rest of the New Testament books were written at
intervals between those two events and at no time during that period were all the books brought
together and codified, along with the Old Testament, into a unified Scriptural volume.
I think that after almost two-thousand years, it is remarkable that there are as few textual problems in
the New Testament as have been identified, and the same goes for the Old Testament as well. Another
interpolation is the passage in John 7:53 - 8:11, which is the account of the woman taken in
adultery, and has the same problem as Mark 16:9-20. There is also 1 John 5:7-8 which expresses very
distinct Trinitarian statement, but is also a later addition not original to the apostle John.
I don't find the additions in John and 1 John to be as problematic as those found in Mark 16:9-20,
because those passages do not make claims that render other Scriptural passages in error, but the
claims made in Mark 16:9-20 do not conform to the teachings in the other portions of Scripture. In
particular, Mark 16:17-18 states that ALL believers would have certain abilities:
1. "... they will take up serpents. . ." - (The implication being that they will not be harmed.)
2. "... if they drink anything deadly, it will by no means hurt them ..."
3. "... they will lay hands on the sick, and they will recover."
There are no disclaimers in the two verses, which disqualify certain believers from asserting those
abilities such as a lack of faith, failure to speak in a positive manner or failure to tithe or give their time
or money to the work of ministry.
Jesus Christ gave authority over demons and the ability to heal, (Mark 6:7-13; Luke 9:1-6, 10-11), to
the twelve disciples (including Judas Iscariot), and then He did the same with the seventy, including the
ability to walk on serpents and scorpions (which could also have been demonic spirits rather than actual
animal creatures), and authority "over all the power of the enemy, and nothing will injure you,"(Luke
10:1-20). The apostle Paul was immune to snake venom, Acts 28:3-6.
Jesus Christ granted those specific gifts to specific people and not to all of His disciples in general,
because there were more than the twelve and the seventy who were His followers, Acts 1:15. There
are others in the early church who had the ability to heal: Stephen (Acts 6:8), Philip (Acts 8:7) and
Barnabas (Acts 15:12). The apostles, although they had great and powerful gifts, did not possess those
gifts in their fullness as time progressed. All of the apostles were eventually martyred, except for John,
so they did not have authority over everything that would harm them. Even the healing power expressed
by the apostle Paul was limited, since he did not heal Epaphroditus (Philippians 2:25-27),
Trophimus (2 Timothy 4:20), and Timothy (1 Timothy 5:23). The apostle Paul specifically teaches that
not all Christians have all of the gifts, including the ability to heal (1 Corinthians 12:27-31).
The fact that the verses in Mark do not belong there and that some verses have been lost does not
preclude the possibility that the content of those verses was recorded in the other gospels, so in the
absence of knowing what the missing verses said, you should not protest too vigorously by asserting
that I am claiming that God has been unable to protect His Word or that you are being denied some
major information necessary for living the Christian life. The reality is, that Mark 16:17-18 presents
some very erroneous information that will cause great frustration and/or illness and death to the believer
who acts on what the verses say.
#4
Do not Jugde them for yours have not been published yet.
United States
[47-Vol 1]
#5
To whom it may concern:
I looked up on the internet to do some information on Oral Roberts life and ministry.
When I found this page I was discusted. Growing up as a pastors daughter of course
I had some people talk bad about my parents and it would hurt me bad. When you
wrote this you did not think about Roberts family and how that would effect them by
writting this stuff. Yeah even if it is true you do not have to down him like you did. That is horrible.
Oral Roberts is not God nor has he ever said to be so then that makes him human. He is not perfect. I
am sure he has made mistakes in his life and in his ministry but for this page to make him look like this
horrible person is wrong. I hop0e that you think about this and realize that what you are writting hurts
people. I take it that this is a Christian page for people to get free bibles and stuff but when christians
and putting down other christians than who would want to even want to get involved with Christianity
anyways. Just think about that please.
United States
[48-Vol 1]
ON DOCTRINE NOTE:
Thank you for your visit and message on the Contact page.
If I have spoken "bad" about Oral Roberts, then it must be that I have spoken some untruth. If that is
the case, then you are free to present the actual facts as a correction and I will be happy to consider
your response.
I have never said that Oral Roberts claimed to be God, although he claims to be a "little God" like his
friend Kenneth Copeland, by which they claim equality with Jesus Christ. I have never said that Oral
Roberts should be perfect or that he should not make legitimate mistakes. What Oral Roberts has done
is something quite different than revealing the normal foibles of human beings. He has deliberately made
claims that God has told him specific things that He has not.
I would say that Oral Roberts' family supports him fully in his endeavors, including his son Richard
Roberts who has actively participated in the "revelations" that Oral Roberts has claimed and wrote
letters begging followers to send in their money when Oral Roberts claimed that God was going to kill
him if he didn't raise $8 million.
Oral Roberts has no concern for you or your family when he claims to receive revelations from God
instructing him to beg money from you, when he has received no such revelation. I don't really
understand the rationale behind your last statement, because who would want to get involved with a
leader who claims to receive revelations from God that he has not. Apparently many people choose
that avenue.
#6
You either don't read the Bible much, or you don't believe it much. I can't figure you out. People like
you have a bad habit of taking ministers' words out of context almost as much as some take the Bible
out of context.Get a real job, stop trying to find fault with everyone who is actually helping the body of
Christ, and develop a little faith in the Word you claim to know so much about.
United States
[56-Vol 2]
#7
As a Freewill Baptist minister I wish to address the article on Arminian
Theology.It pains me to see the Body of Christ divided over such matters,
the one main point of doctrine that we can agree on is that this is a lost
and dying world in need of a Saviour.If we keep our eyes on Christ all else will pale in the light of the
truth.
United States
[81-Vol 2]
#8
The bible does not teach their are no longer any prophets. If there are no prophets, then there are no
preachers, teachers, or evangelists. You need to get your scriptures correct.
United States
[84-Vol 2]
ON DOCTRINE NOTE:
I am not speaking about prophets in the context of those who proclaim and teach the message
of the Scripture, who are defined as "forth tellers". I am referring to those who claim the gift of
prophecy by which they claim to receive additional information from God, Jesus Christ, the
Holy Spirit or angels which is not part of the biblical record. The numbers of those people who
claim that ability are legion, but taken together, their supposed revelations are a contradictory mass
of confusion, which is the logical end of a belief in continuing direct revelation.
The test of a prophet is specified by God Himself in, Deuteronomy 18:20-22 and Deuteronomy 13:1-3.
If you have not applied God's standard to your prophets, then you are part of the problem.
#9
You really dont seem to under stand how healings take place it is there for you and you have to believe
and recieve you also have to work your faith also I know this for a fact you speak Godsa word believe
and then you recieve there are principles that you have to do God healed me from acid reflux after 2
years of trying every thing then I stood on Gods word and spoke Gods word and in 2 days I was
healed and about numners being called out any one can be healed if you have a cproblem it doesnt
mean that its just for 16 it just means that if you believe it you can be healed Jesus already did every
thing that we need its left up to us to recieve it and you have to use your faith there is a part you have
in it also I know this is true because not just hear sat I am a living testamony and people like you cant
take that away I know that they are false doctrine out there but God will manifest Himself in you and
you will know that God is real and thatHe will show you He is real It just really botherts me wh
[rest of messge lost during transmission].
[86-Vol 2]
#10A
Be careful what you say about your brothers and sisters in Christ. You and I may not like everything
Richard Roberts says, but this I know, be very careful that you do not sit in the seat of scoffers, and
do not judge another man's servant or you will find the Lord bringing you low and showing you no
mercy.
PSALM 1:1-2
1 How blessed is the man who does R1 not walk in the counsel R2 of the wicked, Nor stand in the
path
of sinners, Nor sitin the seat of scoffers!
2 But his delight is in the law of the LORD,
And in His law he meditates day and night.
JAMES 2:12-13
12 So speak and so act as those who are to be judged by the law of liberty. 13 For judgment will be
MERCILESS to one who has shown no mercy; MERCY triumphs over judgment.
JAMES 3:5-12
5 So also the tongue is a small part of the body, and yet it boasts of great things. See how great a forest
is set aflame by such a small fire! 6 And the tongue is a fire, the very world of iniquity; the tongue is set
among our members as that which defiles the entire body, and sets on fire the course of our life, and is
set on fire by hell. 7 For every species beasts and birds, of reptiles and creatures of the sea, is tamed
and has been tamed by the human race. 8 But no one can tame the tongue; it is a restless evil and full
of deadly poison. 9 With it we bless our Lord and Father, and with it we curse men, who have been
made in the likeness of God; 10 from the same mouth come both blessing and cursing. My brethren,
these things ought not to be this way. 11 Does a fountain send out from the same opening both fresh
and bitter water? 12 Can a fig tree, my brethren, produce olives, or a vine produce figs? Nor can salt
water produce fresh.
Blessings in Yeshua,
United States
[87-Vol 2]
ON DOCTRINE NOTE:
Before you attempt to defend Richard Roberts, you need to deal with the judgments that he has
pronounced which are much more serious than anything I have stated in relation to his claims and
teachings. I suggest you read the Mail Call communication and my reply at:
Richard Roberts #53
#10B
Brother Gary,
My point to you and for you, is that the LORD will deal with His servants AND Mr. Roberts
judgements that he has pronounced. Should we return evil for evil? no, but as
James the Righteous, brother of Jesus states:
Book of James 2:8-13
8 If, however, you are fulfilling the royal law according to the Scripture, "YOU SHALL LOVE
YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF," you are doing well. 9 But if you show partiality, you are
committing sin and are convicted by the law as transgressors. 10 For whoever keeps the whole
law and yet stumbles in one point, he has become guilty of all. 11 For He who said, "DO NOT
COMMIT ADULTERY," also said, "DO NOT COMMIT
MURDER." Now if you do not commit adultery, but do commit murder, you
have become a transgressor of the law. 12 So speak and so act as those
who are to be judged by the law of liberty. 13 For judgment will be MERCILESS to one who has
shown no mercy; MERCY triumphs over judgment.
Blessings,
United States
[89-Vol 2]
ON DOCTRINE NOTE:
I am not quite sure what you are attempting to defend. If you claim that love is to remain silent while
fellow Christians are deceived by false teachers, false prophets and immoral leaders, then that is a very
unusual definition of love. Those particular teachers, prophets and leaders are perfectly happy to have
the church adopt that approach, since they can operate without any concern that they will ever be
called to accountability or encounter any opposition.
It is very popular to adopt the position that God will remove all of the leaders who do not meet His
standards, so it is presumed that those who have not died in their pulpits must be acceptable to God,
therefore they do not merit a critical analysis of their doctrines or their conduct. That is certainly not a
biblical position, because that is not a claim made by God or Jesus Christ. If that were actually the case,
then there would be no false religious systems in the world, and the warning by Jesus Christ was
pointless hyperbole, Matthew 24:23-28.
See also: 2 Peter 2:1-22; 3:1-7, Jude 3-19.
One of the major criticisms and questions from the secular press in relation to the Jim Bakker, Jimmy
Swaggart and Ted Haggard moral scandals was, Why don't Christians police their own leaders? You
have presented one of the reasons, by redefining the nature of love as being acceptance and sanction
without discernment or consequences. That is not a proper application of love, especially in relation to
those who are followers of the leaders who are the problem. I find it interesting that you consider the
exposure of false doctrine and improper conduct to be evil.
The standards for leadership in the church are presented in 1 Timothy 3:1-13, Titus 1:5-16. Those
standards were not placed in the Scripture so God would have a reference reminder when He decided
to act against false leaders; they are there for the church and it is expected that those standards will be
upheld by members and elders. Unfortunately, that is not the norm.
There are a number of examples in the Scripture where individuals were rebuked, especially leaders,
and where doctrines and teachings were not accepted without question. The following represent those
issues:
Genesis 20:1-18
Abimelech, the pagan king of Gerar rebuked Abraham for his lies.
Genesis 26
Abimelech, another pagan king of Gerar and the Philistines rebuked Isaac for his lies.
Numbers 22:21-35
Balaam was rebuked by an ass and an angel.
2 Samuel 12:1-15
Nathan rebuked David for his sin with Bathsheba and the murder of Uriah.
Matthew 23:13-36
The eight woes publicly pronounced against the Pharisees by Jesus Christ.
Luke 11:37-45
The public rebuke of the Pharisees by Jesus Christ.
Luke 11:46-52
The public rebuke of the Mosaic Law experts by Jesus Christ.
Acts 17:11
The Bereans scrutinized the teachings of the apostle Paul.
1 Corinthians 5
1 "It is actually reported that there is immorality among you, and immorality of such a kind as does not
exist even among the Gentiles, that someone has his father's wife.
2 "You have become arrogant and have not mourned instead, so that the one who had done this deed
would be removed from your midst.
3 "For I, on my part, though absent in body but present in spirit, have already judged him who has so
committed this, as though I were present.
4 "In the name of our Lord Jesus, when you are assembled, and I with you in spirit, with the power of
our Lord Jesus,
5 "I have decided to deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of his flesh, so that his spirit may be
saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.
6 "Your boasting is not good. Do you not know that a little leaven leavens the whole lump of
dough?
7 "Clean out the old leaven so that you may be a new lump, just as you are in fact unleavened. For
Christ our Passover also has been sacrificed.
8 "Therefore let us celebrate the feast, not with old leaven, nor with the leaven of malice and
wickedness, but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth.
9 "I wrote you in my letter not to associate with immoral people;
10 "I did not at all mean with the immoral people of this world, or with the covetous and swindlers, or
with idolaters, for then you would have to go out of the world.
11 "But actually, I wrote to you not to associate with any so-called brother if he is an immoral person,
or covetous, or an idolater, or a reviler, or a drunkard, or a swindler - not even to eat with such a
one.
12 "For what have I to do with judging outsiders? Do you not judge those who are within the
church?
13 "But those who are outside, God judges. Remove the wicked man from among
yourselves.
Galatians 2:11-21
Paul rebuked Peter publicly and included a rebuke of Barnabus in his letter.
Philippians 4:2-3
Euodia and Syntyche were rebuked for their disunity.
1 Timothy 1:20
Hymenaeus and Alexander were delivered to Satan because of blasphemy.
2 Timothy 1:15
Phygelus and Hermogenes are named as persons who turned away from the apostle Paul.
2 Timothy 2:17
Hymenaeus and Philetus were noted for their false doctrine.
2 Timothy 4:10
Demas is named as a lover of the world and deserted the apostle Paul.
3 John 9-10
Diotrephes was rebuked for speaking nonsense against the apostle John, refusing to speak to John and
removing the real brethren from the church.
All of the above examples are from the Scripture and have remained there as examples from which
Christians should learn about their responsibility in relation to leaders and in relation to applying the
standards of the Scripture.
If you wish to use a Scripture to present your case, then James 2:8-13 is probably not the best passage
to use, because, like you have done with the definition of love, you must change the definitions of
judgment and mercy to reflect what they do not mean in the verses. Judgment and mercy, in context as
referenced by James, have nothing to do with a comparison of the doctrines and conduct of teachers to
that found in the Scripture.
The subject of James chapter 2 and the application of judgment and mercy is defined in verses 2 and 3,
and concerns the use of favoritism in the church. That favoritism entailed preferential treatment for those
who were rich and a disenfranchisement of those who were poor by which the gospel was being denied
to them. The poor were being judged as inferior and unworthy and thus the gospel
message, by which the mercy of God is expressed, was being denied to them. In
addition, the resources of the rich which cold have been used to help the poor were not being used in
that manner, so the members of the church revealed that they did not love their neighbors as
themselves. They only loved the rich for the status and benefits that they might receive from them. If
you will go back and read the entire chapter, you will see what is being discussed and why you cannot
take a passage of Scripture that is dealing with one subject, and then take that same Scripture and
claim that it applies to another subject that is not defined within the passage.
If the Lord is going to deal with his servants so that I don't have to be concerned, then He is quite
capable of dealing with me so that you do not have to be concerned. As I have responded to many
others who have attempted to present arguments similar to yours, If criticism is forbidden to me, then it
is also forbidden to you. I have noted a response to many of your concerns in a previous article on the
website:
"Why Do I Criticize God's Anointed?"
#11
We are [acquainted] with GTA family even still after his unfortunate
and fixed (according to resources) death. Look upon you and see the revelations that is coming upon
us, even with the great possibility of Obama coming ahead! You know nothing about the dimensions of
God! But however, they also, like ourselves defied God, because of possible infractions to the Law!
Does a Prophet Sin? Does any man other than than the Messiah sin? So what authority governs who
in such matters of being with women, or is it the image of man that governs right for the children to
understand? Let God do His Job and do not make governed remarks about a man who may have well
attempted to save your life through understand of God when you dwell well upon your lavish hosts. Be
mindful, GTA is like John the Baptist, more dangerous dead than alive, I assure you of that. O btw, no
the armstrongs are not aware of this message and they may feel more at Peace if they did!
But, in love and spirit, be not glued to what is [rest of article lost during transmissin].
United States
[88-Vol 2]
ON DOCTRINE NOTE:
SEE the article:
Garner Ted Armstrong
#12A
Gary: Regarding the doctrine of inclusion of Carlton Pearson. The Scripture fully and without
reservation prove this doctrine to be correct. I came to this understanding not by someone else's
writings or theories, but by careful study of the Scripture. I was not aware of Carlton Pearson or
anyone else for that matter who understood this.
I started my study of Scripture in 1988 going to different Baptist churches, then studying Luther and his
writings. Luther of any Christian came close to truth, but did not understand the fullness of the gospel.
Salvation is not about anything that involves man, but is all of God.
Salvation is mine says the Lord.
God was never angry at man for supposed sin, this was all conjured up in the mind of Adam not God.
God asked Adam in the garden. Who told you that you were naked? God never ever ever accused
man of sin. This is made up in the mind of man.
The grave and catastrophic error of the so called Christian church is as follows:
1. They blatanly refuse to heed the plain instruction of the Apostle Paul in the interpretation of Scripture.
1 Corinthians 2:10 and following clearly and plainly tell us that Scripture is to be interpreted
SPIRITUALLY. What do the devils tell us? They tell us to interpret them literally; big, big mistake they
outright deny this very clear and plain Scripture and fall headlong into monumental, grievous error. This
destroys any chance of correctly interpreting Scripture. Why would God give any knowledge to anyone
who so blatanly disobeyes these foundational instructions. Therefore God has sent a delusion to those
who do not OBEY THE GOSPEL.
2. The churches take one or two verses out ot context and form complete denominations out of them.
Hence the Baptists, Jehovah Witnesses, Morons,Pentecostals etc, etc, ad infinitum.
3. They have not heeded the warnings of Jesus, that Satan would be loosed where he and his devils
operate in every pulpit of every church in this planet. Truth has completely been obliterated by you so
called theologians, pastors, teachers, so called leaders. This is who God is angry with. Did he not show
us the church through his examples of the pharissees? All of Scripture was given as an example to the
New Testament church. The old testament is not about Israel the physical. It is about the spiritual Israel.
We of the new testament church are the real jews as Romans so clearly teaches.
4. Read Isaah carefully and Jeremiah, and Ezekiel and there you will see a clear picture of the
HARLOT. The fools take these books and try and fit them in to what is going on in the world, when
God is talking about the church. Do we not read the same language in Jeremiah as in Revelation? This
should give us a huge clue, but oh no we go off and try and match it to our newspapers. WHAT
FOOLISHNESS!
5. God repeats himself over and over and over in the Scriptures. You will be without excuse when you
have to answer to God for those things that you have taught and deceived the flock.
6. You have followed a man named Calvin who was an outright murderer, who had people executed
for their supposed heresies. Is this what Christ would have done?
7. Calvin not taking into account all of Scripture, takes a few verses out of Romans and Ephesians out
of context and comes up with the most blasphemous doctrines ever to be passed down to this very day.
8. When you look at all of the teaching of Scripture there is abundant overwhelming evidence of the
doctrine of the SALVATION OF ALL MANKIND.
9. But you having judged yourselves unworthy, you are sows that were WASHED, but you have gone
back to your mire and vomit.
10. Those verses in Peter tells us very clearly we all come into this world washed by the blood of
Christ, but you have trampled under foot the Son of God. You have defiled your garments.
11. Let me tell you about the doctrine of election. MANY ARE CALLED, FEW ARE CHOSEN.
Here is your doctrine of election. God again here is referring to those of us who have been called to
feast on the Word of God. Out of the called he chooses few. Why? They had the abundant witness
before their very eyes, but like the pharoh did not want to see. God all day long calls out to his bride,
but she refuses to SEE.
12. You have denied Christ, because you say He is NOT THE SAVIOR OF THE WORLD. The
samaritans, Peter, Paul, John, all testify that He is the Savior of the WORLD.
13. You have denied Christ when you say that sin is still in the world, when according to the New
Testament and Old, sin is done away with. God does not look at or see sin. What did Christ die for?
According to you and your foolish followers: He died for nothing, accomplished nothing. SIN, SIN,
SIN, YOU ARE WORKERS OF INIQUITY.
14. The church and its stupidity mock Christ every time they exalt the ten commandments, when Christ
died to take the law away, even Luther understood this partly. You are worshiping the tables made of
stone. You are not worshiping Christ.
15. This world has been in error since pentecost, and the Scriptures rightly prophesied this very thing
would happen. TIME TO WAKE UP, for the time is short.
United States
[90-Vol 2]
#12B
Gary: You are following men, that is obvious. Calvin, Jonathan Edwards, John MacCarthur, and your
rival Armenius do not and did not understand the gospel. You with the rest of the so called Christian
church have fallen headlong into serious fatal error.
The abomination of desolation is you and all these others, you have made the truth desolate.
The Scriptures rightly describe you as workers of iniquity. How so you say?
In your foolish unbelief and rejection of the simplicity of the gospel you are in danger of eternal
damnation. Let us look at a few simple Scriptures:
1. Mathew 12:31 here Jesus sums up all of Scripture in his first statement, the simplicity of the gospel is
laid out. ALL manner of SIN AND BLASPHEMY SHALL BE FORGIVEN UNTO MEN. Here
Jesus has no exclusions unto men means all of humanity, and ALL SIN means ALL SIN. But the
church being more stubborn than Pharaoh denies and rejects this statement outright. First; like you say
only the elect have their sin taken away, and then you deny it for the elect also, because you say we still
sin. What a slap in the face of Christ. Does ALL mean ALL? Not to you and all of Babylon.
2. John 1:29 Here is the statement of faith of John the Baptist as so witnessed by the apostle John.
Behold the Lamb of God which taketh away the sin of the world. I guess this means nothing to you, or
you will lead us into the Greek or whatever and tell us this verse does not really mean what it says.
Pretty bold, pretty plain I would say!
3. John 4:42 Here we have many more witnesseses the Samaritans, not theologians, not pastors, but
what the church considers unclean. This is a statement of faith my friend. Now we believe, not because
of thy saying; for we have heard him ourselves, and know that this is indeed, the SAVIOUR OF THE
WORLD. Is this your statement of faith? No yours is God is the Saviour of us the elect. What
arrogance and foolish pride! Your Jesus could not even save the world, or take away sin.
4. John 9:41 If ye were blind, ye should have NO SIN; but now ye say, WE SEE; therefore your SIN
REMAINETH. EVEN THOSE WHO ARE OUTSIDE THE CHURCH HAVE THEIR SINS
REMOVED. What more can we say here? This is very clear. I am sure you will come up with
something right. But look what Jesus says those who say they see there sin will remain. If this is not our
apostate church then please tell me WHO?
5. If this was not plain enough here is another: John 15:22 If I had not come and spoken to them, they
had not had sin:BUT NOW they have no cloke for their SIN. Here you have Jesus telling us that
anyone who does not even hear the gospel has NO SIN, but this verse throws your once saved always
saved false gospel down the drain. Look what Jesus has done we have a cloke we are born with the
cloke. ALL OF HUMANITY IS BORN WITH THE CLOKE. But here Jesus is telling us we can
have our cloke removed. How? By committing the unpardonable sin, speaking (teaching against the
gospel) Remember there is only one sin that has the but attached to it. This sin is not physical murder,
physical adultery, etc,etc.
6. Acts 10:28 God hath shewed me that I should not call any man common or unclean. This is a
statement of faith of the apostle Peter witnessed by the writer of the book of Acts. We cannot call any
man unclean. Once you say you are SAVED AND SOMEONE ELSE IS NOT, after looking at the
Word of God, you are now in danger of having your robe removed, your name blotted out. DOES
THIS MAKE SENSE? I struggled my entire time I was in the churches trying to make sense of what
they were coming up with. Baptist, reformed, pentecostals,mormons, jehovah witnesses, seventh day,
church of christ,lutherans, presbytarians, on and on ad infinitum, they are all the same. ALL DENYING
AND REJECTING THE WORK OF CHRIST ON THE CROSS. The leaders are workers of
iniquity. Working up sin, plowing it up, over and over, and over.
7. Daniel 9:24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to FINISH THE
TRANSGRESSION, AND TO MAKE AN END OF SINS, and to make reconciliation for iniquity,
and to bring in EVERLASTING RIGHTEOUSNESS. This was a prophesy of the cross. Jesus said on
the cross IT IS FINISHED. Was it finished? Not according to the learned church and it's many fine
theologians. THEY DENY AND REJECT THIS EVERY TIME THEY OPEN THEIR
BLASPHEMOUS MOUTHS, OR WRITE ANOTHER OF THEIR FINE TREATESIES OR
BOOKS. Gary do you have the message yet? The true believer must believe the whole world is saved.
It does not need to get saved as the Armenians would tell us.
8. The test of true believers comes in 1 John 3:9 whosever is born of God doth not sin, and cannot sin.
John here is teaching us that once someone sees the gospel in the Word of God he UNDERSTANDS,
REMEMBER PROVERBS, THE WORDS OF JESUS. IT IS ALL ABOUT UNDERSTANDING.
Understanding What? That sin is done away. We must believe God and His word. We must not look at
ourselves or the world. Paul says He judges no man according to the flesh.
God through Christ sees a sinless world. We must have the mind of Christ and therefore we see no sin
in us or the world. Not because of what the world is doing, BUT WHAT CHRIST HAS DONE 2000
YEARS AGO.
9. This probably is not enough evidence for you, so we will continue; Hebrews 9:26 but NOW once in
the end of the world hath he appeared to PUT AWAY SIN by the sacrifice of himself. Now are you
going to tell me that sin is still here. I dare you deny this statement; a most powerful statement of the
gospel.
This is enough for now. I need to hear from you, or else I will dust off my feet and move on.
United States
[98-Vol 2]
ON DOCTRINE NOTE:
When you begin your theological system with a wrong premise, then everything that followers will
become progressively more erroneous. Such is your claim that, "God was never angry at man for
supposed sin, this was all conjured up in the mind of Adam not God."
In order to support that assertion:
You must deny the nature of the prohibition.
The difference between obedience and disobedience was the difference between life and death,
". . . but from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you
eat from it you will surely die." Genesis 2:17 (NAS).
You must deny the reality of the curses pronounced -
The curse on the serpent, 3:14-15.
The curse on the woman, 3:16
The curse on Adam, 3:17-19
The curse on the earth, 3:17-18
The curse on the animal world, 3:14
The curse on Adam and Eve - death, 3:19
The curse on Adam and Eve - expulsion, 3:22-24
If God gave punishment for "supposed sin" that was not actual sin that did not really
happen, then God is a cruel ogre and task master who metes out punishment without cause and without
remorse.
You must deny the action of God.
"The Lord God made garments of skin for Adam and his wife, and clothed them."
Genesis 3:21 (NAS).
If Adam only imagined that he was naked, then Eve must have participated in the same fanciful dream
which resulted in their fabrication of clothing from leaves, 3:7. But you must explain why, if they only
imagined their nakedness, why God killed an animal a made clothes from the skin.
You must deny the entire third chapter of Genesis in order to make your theory plausible.
You must deny the words of the apostle Paul:
Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death
spread to all men, because all sinned -"
Romans 5:12 (NAS)
Rather than adopt a version that you have conjured in your mind, I will remain with the Scripture.
#12C
Gary: I have written to you before, but obviously you don't care about truth. I am not a follower of
Carlton Pearson, nor have I ever been. But Carlton is on his way to truth according to Scripture not
apostles of Satan like Oswold Chambers or the others you mentioned. Who cares what they think or
profess. Let us look at Scripture and only Scripture.
You are following that devil Calvin. The baptists are following that devil Armenius. The truth has eluded
all of you, and God has sent you a strong delusion. You are all workers of iniquity. How so? Because
you have missed the gospel by a trillion miles, that if you are not careful will put you into outer darkness.
I will lay it out for you with Scripture.
1. ROMANS 6:11 says very clearly that we are to reckon ourselves indeed dead to sin. Sin is a dead
issue in the mind of God the father, Christ the Son, and the Holy Spirit. Therefore we are to have the
mind of Christ, the mind of Christ sees no sin certainly not with us and most certainly not in others.
Therefore let me make it perfectly clear sin has been a dead issue since the cross.
2. Hebrews 10:26 remember this scary verse which nobody seems to quite understand. That if we sin
wilfully after you have received the truth; of how much sorer punishment is for that person. STUDY UP
TO VERSE 29. You and the whole supposed church are treading underfoot the Son of God, and have
made his death on the cross null and void
3.Hebrews 9:26 Says that NOW He has appeared to put away sin. Is sin put away? Hell no; that is all
the churches talk about is SIN, SIN, SIN when sin has been put away. This makes you the workers of
iniquity. You are working it up. Isaiah says you are working it up like a plow that brings up buried dirt.
Sin was buried with Christ. Christ has now appeared without sin, but you and your churches keep
bringing it up.
4. 1 John 3:9 says that whosoever is born of God does not sin and cannot sin. Anyone who
understands the heart and soul of the gospel knows that this important verse is a test to see who
UNDERSTANDS what the gospel is. I always agonized over this verse, because it is very clear that
this is not less sin, or minor sins, or not a habit of sin. It is very clear; does not, and cannot two very
emphatic terms. The next verse 10 tells us that this is how you test to see who is understanding the
gospel. IT IS ALL ABOUT UNDERSTANDING. Read the book of PROVERBS.
5. 1 John 3:4 clearly tells us what sin is. IT IS THE TRANSGRESSION OF THE LAW.
6. Romans 4:15 says the LAW worketh wrath; where there is NO LAW THERE IS NO
TRANSGRESSION. If you miss the simplicity of this you will be weeping and gnashing. The law has
been taken away. How many verses do you want me to quote from the New Testament. Colossians
2:14, Ephesians 2:15, almost the entire book of Galatians, 2 Corinthians 3:6-18 spells it out so clear
you have to be a devil not to see this.
7: If the law and sin were done away then no one has sin other than those who would come against
Mathew 12:31 Jesus said it all here ALL MANNER OF SIN AND BLASPHEMY SHALL BE
FORGIVEN UNTO MEN. Not some men or the elected men it is unto all mankind, BUT YOU
GARY HAND ARE COMMITING THE UNPARDONABLE SIN BY SPEAKING AGAINST
THIS VERY SIMPLE STATEMENT OF Jesus.
8. 1 timothy 4:10 says it all and Paul makes a summary statement in verse 11 these things command
and teach. You see Gary God is the Savior of ALL men. We all come into this world washed by the
blood of the Lamb. The only people that will deserve punishment are those who were called to the
supper to feast on the Word of God, and have trampled underfoot the Son of God, and come up with
your own gospels. You will be without excuse. Charles Manson, Adolf Hitler will be in the kindom and
the very ones that were to give us the ministry of reconciliation that Christ was not imputing THEIR
SINS UNTO THEM. Who is THEM? It is the entire world. Does it not say HE is reconciling the
WORLD UNTO HIMSELF? You will be weeping and gnashing
9. You need to heed this carefully, you are in very serious error.
I will now give you the testimonies of the following:
PETER: ACTS 10-28 This is Peters statement of faith. God has shown me that I should call NO
MAN UNCLEAN. What is Peter saying here? In simple terms God has shown me that I cannot call
any man unsaved. What are you and the church doing? According to your gospel only the elect are
saved. What arrogant prideful garbage!
SAMARITANS: John 4:42 and we have heard him for ourselves and know that this is INDEED THE
CHRIST THE SAVIOR OF THE WORLD. Care to elaborate here.
PAUL: 1 TIMOTHY 4:10, 1 TIMOTHY 2:4, 2 CORINTHIANS 5:14-15 AND MANY MORE.
JOHN: 1 JOHN 4:14 AND WE HAVE SEEN AND DO TESTIFY THAT GOD SENT THE SON
TO BE THE SAVIOR OF THE WORLD.
Here you have the testimony of many. Don't you think that if HE was going to save only the elect HE
would have repeated it many times. He did not you have taken a verse out of context in John and
Ephesians and come up with a totally false gospel. You were not watching out. God has set a trap for
the supposed WISE. You and your great library of books of men will all be for not. The truth is in
Scripture not the Library of Calvin or Luther or anyone else.
United States
[141-Vol 3]
ON DOCTRINE NOTE:
As I mentioned in my reply, when you start your theological system with a wrong premise, then
everything that follows will become progressively more erroneous. Your treatment of the verses in your
note is the best example of that reality in action.
You are attempting to create your own loophole by claiming that the Law has been abolished, so in its
absence you cannot be charged with sin in regards to your conduct. That is a very bad handling of
Romans 4:15. The last time I looked, I counted 9 of the 10 Commandments established in the New
Testament, so unless you are keeping all of them perfectly, then you are sinning on a regular basis.
Those sins can be forgiven, but only if you admit to their existence and that you have committed them.
I think you have a problem with the admission portion of the equation.
The unpardonable sin is in relation to the Holy Spirit and not the statements of Jesus Christ, which He
very plainly explains in Matthew 12:32. Before you speak a condemnation, you should at least get the
foundation of that condemnation right.
#13
Dear Sir, Please Add King David As An Adulterer And murderer to your list.
Even though I agree that some on your list should be punished I find that others on your list are only
human just as you and i.
United States
[92-Vol 2]
ON DOCTRINE NOTE:
King David has been part of the hall of shame in the Scripture for thousands of years. His story of
infamy is much better told in those pages than I could ever state. If you are attempting to use king David
as an example of failure to justify your own failures and/or those of your teachers, then you have
seriously misread the Scriptures.
#14
God is performing signs and Wonders in Oral Roberts Ministries.My Mum was having severe Stomach
Upset and i sent a prayer request via ORM address.Miraculously God healed her.Psalm 105 verse
15,Touch not my Anointed and do my prophet know harm.Oral and Richard Roberts are Anointed
men of God.
[99-Vol 2]
ON DOCTRINE NOTE:
SEE the following articles:
"Oral Roberts"
"Oral Roberts - His Propecies"
"Un-Quotable Quotes - Oral Roberts"
"Richard Roberts"
"Un-Quotable Quotes - Richard Roberts"
"Why Do I Criticize God's Anointed?"
#15
Where does it say that prophets do not exist any more there is no such text in the word of God
[104-Vol 3]
ON DOCTRINE NOTE:
You might start with Revelation 22:18-19.
"I testify to everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: if anyone adds to them, God
will add to him the plagues which are written in this book; and if anyone takes away from the words of
the book of this prophecy, God will take away his part from the tree of life and from the holy city,
which are written in this book."
Since the Book of Revelation is the last book that was written, then to claim that additional revelation is
being received violates the satement of the apostle John. Those who claim that they are receiving direct
revelations from God are actually claiming to receive additional Scripture that should be added to the
Bible. That is not acceptable. If you would bring together all of the revelations that people have claimed
to receive from God and then organized them by subject, the resulting mass of nonsense would be
ludicrous.
Those who claim a prophetic office by means of being a prophet or apostle, need to be examined as to
their prophetic or apostolic credentials, which none of them can demonstrate.
#16
Thank you for your response and I am sorry for the inconvenience.
One good thing did come out of this --- Now you know that Jesus was speaking of JEHOVAH when
he speaks of the "Father" or his "Father."
And now it is your turn to "share" the "trurth."
In the beginning there were three separate individuals...
1) JEHOVAH - the only true God - Father.
2) The individual named "Word" - later became known as "Jesus" - Son.
3) The Holy Spirit - Comforter - teacher of the "truth" from the Scriptures.
But of these three separate individuals -- JEHOVAH, alone, is the only true God.
Again, I am not a JEHOVAH Witness but I am a believer in the "truth" from the Scriptures (KJV).
Thanks, again, for your time.
United States
[107-Vol 3]
ON DOCTRINE NOTE:
Just a few questions:
1. How did Jesus Christ come into being; did He always exist or was He created?
2. Who is Jesus Christ according to what you believe?
3. Is Jesus Christ a god, an angel, a human being or what?
4. What is the place of Jesus Christ in the scheme of things?
5. Who is the Holy Spirit?
6. How did the Holy Spirit come into being; did He always exist or was he created?
7. Is the Holy Spirit a god, an angel, or what?
I think you are confused about the name Jesus, which does not mean son and was not the name given
to Him by Mary as a result of the visit by the angel Gabriel, Luke 1:31. Jesus is the Greek form of His
actual Hebrew name which is Jeshua, which is a later form of Jehoshua or Joshua, and means Jehovah
is Salvation or Jehovah saves. The name Jeshua comes from Yehovah, which the King James
translators have rendered as Jehovah.
Jesus Christ bore the covenant name of God, because of the prophecy in Isaiah 9:6:
"For a child will be born to us, a son will be given to us; and the government will rest on His shoulders;
and His name will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God (El), Eternal Father, Prince of Peace."
The name EL is a descriptor of God, used in Genesis 21:33, "...the everlasting God (El)", and in the
same verse in conjunction with Lord, "...there he called on the name of the Lord (Yehovah)".
Since Jesus Christ is prophesied with the descriptor of the supreme deity, EL, in Isaiah 9:6, indicating
that He is the same as the very God in Genesis 21:33, and furthermore, He is said to be the Eternal
Father, Isaiah 9:6, then you are left with a theology that you have adopted with some very serious
deficiencies.
You equate the "Word" with Jesus Christ, but why do you not accept the definition of the Word stated
by the Scripture?
"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was
in the beginning with God. All things were made by Him; and without Him was not any thing made that
was made. In Him was life; and the life was the light of men. And the light shineth in darkness; and the
darkness comprehended it not,"
John 1:1-5 (KJV)
The book of Revelation identifies the very God:
"I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is and which was and
which is to come, the Almighty,"
Revelation 1:8 (KJV).
However, Isaiah identifies Jesus Christ as the Mighty God:
"...and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counselor, The Mighty God, The Everlasting
Father, The Prince of Peace,"
Isaiah 9:6 (KJV).
Those are not multiple names, they are three titles in one name, "His name," embodied in the very God
of which Jesus Christ is. Only a few verses farther in Revelation, you find the following that is applied to
Jesus Christ:
"I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet, saying,
'I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, what thou seest, write in a book,
and send it unto the seven churches which arein Asia; unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto
Pergamos, and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, and unto Laodicea'. And I turned
to see the voice that spake with me. And being turned, I saw seven golden candlesticks; and in
the midst of the seven candlesticks one like unto the Son of man, clothed with a garment down
to the foot, and girt about the paps with a golden girdle. His head and his hairs were white like wool, as
white as snow; and his eyes were as a flame of fire; and his feet like unto fine brass, as if they burned in
a furnace; and his voice as the sound of many waters. And he had in his right hand seven stars: and out
of his mouth went a sharp twoedged sword: and his countenance was as the sun shineth in his strenth.
And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me,
'Fear not: I am the first and the last: I am he that liveth, and was dead: and behold, I
am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death,"
Revelation 1:10-18 (KJV).
The final reference in Revelation states:
"'And behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall
be. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last. Blessed
are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through
the gates into the city. For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and
idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie. I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto
you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and
morning star,'"
Revelation 22:12-16 (KJV).
You have attempted to adopt a simplistic explanation in order to define a Godhead which is greater
than human understanding that breaks down under the scrutiny of the Scripture. You have defined God
on human terms, and in the process [what] you have done is divest Jesus Christ of deity, so He cannot
be your Savior, since by His death He could only have provided for His own salvation. Unless deity
paid the price for your sins, then no price was paid and you are still lost without hope of redemption.
#17
No one gets it all right down here in this fallen world. And this means you too.
I was there at John Wimbers meetings and saw deivls casted out, people healed by walking out of
wheel chairs and the lost come to the Lord crying and pouring thier hearts out to the God. And John
crying with them and loving them. John would say; you can never go wrong in praying for someone
because you are loving them in doing so.
Who appointed you to point out ones faults? And put it in print for all to see. I though the Word made
that clear whos job it is.....Jesus said the God of this world is judged.
Romans 8:30 And those He predestined,He also called; those He called, He also justified; those
He justified, He also glorified!!!!!
Romans 8:33 Who will bring any charge against those whom God has chosen?
'' 8:34 Who is he that comdemns?
If you see a brother sinning a sin that is not unto death.....pray for him.
You have judged something you don't understand......you think you do but you havent got a clue. This is
not your place to point out the faults (that you think one has). You are to pray, love covers sin.
I pray that God will open your eyes of understanding.
John has always been covered by the blood of the Lamb...and now he is glorified.
United States
[134-Vol 3]
ON DOCTRINE NOTE:
Welcome to On Doctrine.
Thank you for your visit and message on the Contact page.
I have never claimed to have gotten everything right, which is why I have the following posted on the
About page on the website:
"So, why do you think you know so much?
I have limited abilities, limited intellect and do not pretend to be an expert or final authority
regarding the articles that I write, but I do take responsibility for what is stated. In the event that
I misstate the facts or assume that which is untrue, I am willing to be corrected by a genuine
presentation of the facts and will admit to the errors that I make."
SEE - the About page at:
www.ondoctrine.com/00about.htm
No leader is excused from a scrutiny of their conduct or the doctrines that they teach in relation to what
is found in the Scripture.
1. The apostle Paul was not exempt when the Bereans subjected his teaching to the Scripture, Acts
17:11.
2. The apostle Peter and Barnabus were not exempt from public criticism of their conduct by the
apostle Paul, Galatians 2:11-21.
3. Nathan rebuked king David for his sin, 2 Samuel 12:1-15.
4. Euodia and Syntyche were rebuked for their disunity, Philippians 4:2-3.
5. Hymenaeus and Alexander were delivered to Satan because of blasphemy, 1 Timothy
1:20.
6. Phygelus and Hermogenes are named as persons who turned away from the apostle Paul, 2 Timothy
1:15.
7. Hymenaeus and Philetus were noted for their false doctrine, 2 Timothy 2:17.
8. Demas is named as a lover of the world and deserted the apostle Paul, 2 Timothy 4:10.
9. Diotrephes was rebuked for speaking nonsense against the apostle John, refusing to speak to John
and removing the real brethren from the church, 3 John 9-10.
10. Abraham was rebuked by a pagan king because of his lying, Genesis 20:1-18.
11. Isaac was rebuked by a pagan king because of his lying, Genesis 26.
12. Balaam was rebuked by an ass and an angel, Numbers 22:21-35.
The problem in your argument is that you have used Romans 8:30, 33-34 improperly by presuming that
the passage allows you to justify and accept conduct and teaching on the part of your leadership that
may, in fact, be improper or false. The passage is a description of the courtroom of heaven and the
charge that cannot be brought against the believer is in relation to salvation. Those who God has
predestined, foreknown, justified and glorified are not subject to any charge that would prevent or
remove their salvation. The passage has nothing to do with scrutiny of the teachings of leaders. When
you apply Scripture improperly, then you will always come to the wrong conclusion.
I have never accused John Wimber of not being a Christian or not having obtained salvation. That is not
the issue discussed in the article.
As I have noted to others, who seem to believe that their leaders are exempt from scrutiny or
accountability, you have presented the contradiction in relation to what you claim to believe and what
you actually believe. If criticism is forbidden to me, then it is also forbidden to you and you should be
praying for me instead of writing a censure. If your leaders are exempt, then so am I.
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