ON DOCTRINE INFORMATION


The BAD NEWS
Messages Sent To On Doctrine
2007


All Messages Reproduced As Received Without Correction Or Alteration
Names and e-mail addresses removed in accord with the On Doctrine Privacy Policy
Messages are unverified as to content or accuracy


All responses labeled ON DOCTRINE NOTE are by Gary A. Hand unless stated differently


#1A
Oral Roberts University

My Dear Brothers,
My name is
[name removed]. I am a [occupation removed] by trade,a husband and a father and a son, nothing special, know extrodinary knowledge, just a confirmed faith in the God of heaven. As I read your rebuke of Mr Pearson, I'm always amazed at the audacity of you self appointed supposed protectors of Gods people. You think you know what your talking about when in fact you don't.
That Brother is correct in his understanding of God being all inclusive in His purpose of saving every man, women ,and child that has ever lived on this planet. This is a Biblical teaching from the beginning that is until you selfserving hipocrites got hold of the bible and the churchs.
Act3:21 And he shall send Jesus Christ which before was preached unto you:WHOM THE HEAVENS MUST RECEIVE UNTIL THE TIMES OF (RESTITUTION OF ALL THINGS,) WHICH GOD HATH SPOKEN BY THE MOUTH OF ALL HIS HOLY PROPHETS SINCE THE WORLD BEGAN.
You say Brother Pearson minimizes God when in fact it is you that treat God as unable or unwilling to save His creation, thus an in effective deity.
When the scripture say,"Heb 3:9 that God is not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance," what? Gods not able to accomplish His own desire. Of course He is and He will, through the precious blood of Jesus Christ that was shed one time for ALL MANKIND, each in his own time.1 Tim.2:4-6
In order for Jesus to have accopmlished His mission,( 1 Cor 15:26),death must not exist, and not any created being can be in death or it still exist. All will be resurrected and eventually made holy.

Georgia, United States
[2-Vol 1]


ON DOCTRINE NOTE:
The article posted on the On Doctrine website regarding Carlton Pearson was written by me and not by anyone associated with Oral Roberts Ministries. Oral Roberts University removed Carlton Pearson from its board of regents because of his change in theology.

Since the devil, the beast and the false prophet are sent to the lake of fire and brimstone where "they will be tormented day and night forever and ever," and those individuals who do not have their name written in the book of life are "thrown into the lake of fire" also, Revelation 20:10-15, then not all mankind is saved. Since Jesus Christ said that the unrighteous will "go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life," Matthew 25:31-46, then the audacity is to claim greater knowledge and authority than the Judge of every human being. I will remain with the teaching of Jesus Christ.


#1B
Yes the wicked will be punished, temporally, the correct wording for eternally is aion or eonian which speaks of a period of time. Eternal express a state of being as in God himself only,not a time frame.Fore ever and ever all refeer to the ages thus your idea of eternal suffering is error, nor does this false concept glorify the true God of heaven. Jesus's kingdom is said to last forever, yet He hands the kingdom over to the Father and steps down in 1 Cor 15:26-28, The covenant with Israel was said to be( according to popular reading )a ever lasting covenant, but it is not in force today ,the rendering should be age lasting refering to a particular age.

The lake of fire is not a literal place of torment as you suppose, but a symbol,God plainly tells us this in Rev 1:1 the angel "signified", the whole revelation of Jesus Christ "SYMBOLIZED" it, that is what "signifies"means to make known by signs, and signs are symbols. It can not be literal. Since the God of Heaven and the Father of our Lord Jessus Christ has revealed these things to me and others alike(truths which have always been there in the Bible), I have true peace , after many many years in the "church", I have finally found something that makes sense of all these religions and doctrines and its ok because God is in fact saving the world of mankind through Jesus Christ , and wether you believe it or not does not change a thing .

The blood that Jesus shed on the cross was for every man woman and child,we have no part to play in it, not your or my acceptance or rejecting of it. Its just that amazing. God brought all this about the good and the evil Isaiah 45:7, Gen 2:9 for the purpose of our learning to be like Christ. This we will do God will be ALL in ALL.

Georgia, United States
[17-Vol 1]


ON DOCTRINE NOTE:
Apparently you believe that God's promises to Israel have failed and you use that failure as the foundation for your claim that eternal or forever actually means temporary or only for a time. Who said God's promises to Israel will not be fulfilled? The apostle Paul has quite a different opinion, Romans 11, specifically Romans 11:25-32.

So, according to your definition:
Matthew 21:19 means that the fig tree cursed by Jesus Christ would only be without fruit for an "age" or "period of time."

Luke 1:33 means that Jesus Christ would rule over the house of Jacob only for an "age" or "period of time" and that "His kingdom will have no end" actually means that His kingdom will end.

John 6:51, 58 mean that to eat the living bread, which is Jesus Christ, will result in life only for an "age" or "period of time," but after that there is no life.

John 14:16 means that the Holy Spirit is only with the believer for an "age" or "period of time" and then leaves.

Romans 1:25 means that the Creator is only blessed for an "age" or "period of time" and after that He is not blessed.

Romans 9:5 means that God is only blessed for an "age" or "period of time" and after that He is not blessed.

Romans 11:36; 16:27 mean that glory belongs to God on a temporary basis, for an "age" or "period of time" and after that He will not have any glory.

Philippians 4:20 means that glory belongs to God the Father on a temporary basis, for an "age" or "period of time" and after that He will not have any glory.

Hebrews 1:8 means that God's throne is only temporary, existing only for an "age" or "period of time" and after that He must give up His throne.

Hebrews 5:6: 7:17, 16 mean that Jesus Christ is a priest only for an "age" or "period of time" and since salvation is dependent upon His priesthood, then salvation is only for an "age" or a "period of time" also.

Hebrews 13:8 means that Jesus Christ was the same only for an "age" or certain "period of time" yesterday and in the present, and will be the same only during an unspecified "age" or "period of time" in the future, but after that He will not be the same as He was in the previous ages or periods of time.

Hebrews 13:21 means that glory belongs to Jesus Christ on a temporary basis; for an "age" or "period of time" and after that He will not have any glory.

Revelation 1:6; 5:13, mean that after some unspecified "period of time," honor will no longer be required to be given to Jesus Christ.

Revelation 4:9, 10; 10:6, mean that Jesus Christ does not live for an infinity of time, but dies after an unspecified "age" or "period of time" and since salvation depends on the life of Jesus Christ, then the salvation of all believers will end at the same time.

Revelation 7:12 means that blessing, glory, wisdom, thanksgiving, honor, power and might are not infinitely existing attributes of God but are only possessed for an "age" or "period of time."

Revelation 11:15 means that Jesus Christ will only reign for an "age" or "period of time" and not actually forever as a never-ending extension of time.

Revelation 14:11 means (conveniently of course) that torment is only temporary, for an "age" or "period of time" and after suffering the temporary discomforts of "purgatory" everything will be ok.

Revelation 15:7 means that God will only live for an "age" or "period of time" in the future and will then die and cease to exist.

Revelation 22:5 means that the inhabitants of heaven reign with God and the Lamb for an "age" or "period of time" and then must give up their places.
Your attempt to twist the meaning of words turns the Scripture into absurd nonsense. It is so comforting to know that after some "period of time" in the future that God and Jesus Christ cease to exist, that their power and glory will disappear and that my salvation, which is dependent on their existence will fail as well as my life. That is the ultimate conclusion of your definition.

Your attempt to equate "signified" with a definition of "symbolization" as applied to the revelation given is equally twisted. The concept or subject of signs as symbols is not even mentioned in Revelation 1:1. The revelation was signified, indicated or made known by the angel as the validating agent sent by God. What you attempt to do is claim that the Scripture uses a real event as an example to represent what is actually a non-reality or non-entity, something that is foreign to Scripture.

The word SEMAINO is used in five other verses, none of which use a sign or symbol to indicate a non-reality, but they all refer to an actualization of reality as the final outcome:
John 12:33 - the "lifting" in verse 32 represents the actual type of death that Jesus Christ would suffer.

John 18:32 - refers to John 12:33: 21:19.

John 21:19 - refers to John 12:33; 18:32.

Acts 11:28 - to "indicate" is to speak regarding a famine that took place in the reign of Claudius.

Acts 25:27 - to "indicate" the "charges against him" is to list the specific charges.
Your "interpretation" of 1 Corinthians 15:26-28 is bizarre at best or a complete inability to understand language at the worst. The application is absolutely clear: God is the Head, Jesus Christ is subject to God and everything else has been made subject to Jesus Christ including the kingdom. The verses say nothing about Jesus Christ handing over His kingdom to the Father or stepping down as King. The kingdom of Jesus Christ is forever, Revelation 11:15. You write your own Scripture in order to support a theology that has been manufactured outside the Scripture.



#2
Good evening,
I will like to write that what you don't understand don't put down,remember what Nicodemus told his mates if it's of God it will stand and if not.....
God will continually use the foolish things to comfound the wise.Don't be ignorant, The dealings of God are not logical don't be trapped like the scribes.
God bless you

[22-Vol 1]


ON DOCTRINE NOTE:
If you wish to give an instruction in the manner of a rebuke, it would be helpful if you specified exactly the nature and subject of your disagreement and the biblical foundation for your conclusion. Since you provided no return e-mail so I could respond or ask questions regarding my ignorance, then I must presume that you do not really wish to provide a true correction or are unable to do so.

It was Gamaliel (Acts 5:34-39) who made the statement, and he was not speaking for God, but was stating what was convenient and advantageous at the moment. What he stated is not necessarily true in the spiritual world, because the failure of all false religious systems will not occur until the final judgment of Satan by Jesus Christ. It is a grave error to presume that just because a "ministry" or organization exists or a system of belief is popular, that it is from God because it has not failed. If Gamaliel had stated that Islam would fail because it was not from God, then he would still be waiting for that event after 1300 years. If he had stated that Mormonism or Jehovah's Witnesses or Buddhism would fail, he would also still be waiting for those events to happen. How long do you think a person is able to wait before a system fails and they can finally know that it is not from God?

If you wish to accept the idea that mere existence determines that an individual, ministry, organization or teaching is from God, then you will continue to fall into the trap of falsehood that is set by false teachers who are quite happy for you to believe that particular error. Until you make the Scripture the rule of truth, then you will have no foundation for your belief or for your criticism as well.



#3
Any

I have reiewed the doctrine that the people of GTA preach. And what disturbs me is that you and the other authors keep referring to Jews as if they re the tribe of Judah (Yahuda) They are NOT. They are AshkeNAZIS and Sephardic (a mongrel race). Beside historical documents to back this claim, they even admit it themselves.

The word Jew NEVER appeared in the Bible until very recently. There were the Edomians, who were and are the Jews of today. They oppressed the TRUE Yahudi who are the tribe of Judah. Then there was the general term, Judean, which could refer to anyone living in Judea. So there are three COMPLETELY DIFFERENT meanings and yet, because of Scoffield, bought byYahshua's enemies(The Jews), you will only see the word Jew throughout as if they reperesent the same people. THEY DO NOT and ANYONE studying to show themselves approved beforeYAHWEH would know this.

Yahshua HeMessiac stated VERY CLEARLY that the Jews are in NO WAYS His chosen people. You also show support for that SATANIC nation of Israel, which is tantamount to treason against YAHWEH. You have fallen for the BIG deception, prophesied in Revelations.

Those who support or 'worship' the Jews are giving aid and comfort to YAHWEH's enemies and for that, there WILL BE eternal death. You have been warned so you cannot stand before YAHWEH and claim ignorance.

Sincerely,

Arizona, United States
[25-Vol 1]


ON DOCTRINE NOTE:
Checking a dictionary, you would find that the word Jew refers to a member of the tribe of Judah, and is the English word employed to translate the Hebrew word "yehudi". It is also derived from the Old French word "Giu, Juiu" the Latin "Judaeus" and the Greek "Ioudaios".

The word "Yehuwdiy" is used in 2 Kings 16:6 and translated using the English word "Jew" in the KJV 1611. If you consider that translation date to be "recent" then be my guest. None of the uses of the term employed in the KJV can be attributed to C.I. Scofield who was not even born until 1843.

Garner Ted Armstrong promoted the identical teachings of his father, Herbert W. Armstrong who is a demonstrated false prophet and adopted the teachings of British Israelism. I noted the following in the article on that subject:
British-Israelism (Anglo-Israelism) is the belief and teaching of a number of religious groups, that the 10 "lost" tribes of Israel are actually the Anglo-Saxon race and are specifically the people of Great Britain. By definition, then, the Anglo-Saxon (or white) people are the true Israelites, being the descendants of Abraham and are the only chosen people of God and heirs to the covenant of God. The people who are living in Israel today, calling themselves Jews, are actually impostors who mistakenly identify themselves with the Israelites, but are, in fact, descendants of Judah and are not the chosen people of God and are not part of the covenant of God.

The teachings regarding British-Israelism, are nothing new, having been around for several centuries. This doctrine was re-packaged and popularized in the twentieth century by Herbert W. Armstrong as Armstrongism and was a main element of doctrine in his World Wide Church of God. His son, Garner Ted Armstrong [whose immoral lifestyle would have made a black mark on a piece of coal] continued the teaching until his death in 2003.

This belief and teaching is popular in many circles, religious and otherwise. It provides a convenient foundation for the justification of attacks on the current Jewish people and the anti-Semitism that is found in the world today. By joining themselves to the teaching and belief, people claim that they are not anti-Semitic because the real Jews are Anglo-Saxons and therefore they, themselves, are the true Semites. Their attacks on the Jewish people of today are, therefore, exposing the fraud and deception that is inherent in the modern Jewish claim that they are Israelites."
British Israelism is simply another name for anti-Semitism that is cloaked in quasi-religious/historical terminology designed to mask the true intent of eliminating the claims of current Israel regarding possession of the land and the biblical statements that Israel will one day find salvation and that the promises of God will be fulfilled in relation to those people.

If you believe that the Jews are something other than what they claim(ed) to be, then you must also presume that Jesus Christ went to the wrong people in order to establish His kingdom. Jesus preached in Judea, Samaria, Galilee and Perea and at no time did He ever make claims against the inhabitants regarding an assertion that they were not the chosen people. The Scripture states:

He came to His own, and those who were His own did not receive Him," John 1:11.

If Jesus Christ came to those that He thought were His own but who were actually fakes, then He was incompetent and unqualified as the Messiah.

Those who are true Israel are descendants of Abraham through Isaac and then Jacob who was first called Israel by God, Genesis 33:28; 35:10. Jacob's (Israel's) sons were Reuben, Simeon, Levi, Judah, Issachar, Zebulun, Joseph, Benjamin, Dan, Naphtali, Gad and Asher. All of the descendants of the twelve sons have equal rights to be called a part of national Israel, not just the descendants of Judah:

Since I do not "worship" the Jews, then your statement that I do is absurd nonsense. Since Israel is no more uniquely "Satanic" than any other nation, your claim that I am treasonous in relation to God is equally absurd nonsense, especially since you cannot present any Scriptural foundation for that claim.

You will have to explain how the deception in Revelation can be considered to be support for Israel, because that is truly a mystery not stated anywhere in the Scripture.



#4A
whomever wrote on Herbert W. Armstrong

I think you had better read your bible a little bit more carefully. For instance John 6:44 "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him: and I will raise him up at the last day." Herbert W. Armstrong is able to show every thing he teaches in the bible, he has restored all things! God is a family, and the Gospel of God is about the coming Kingdom of God. When Jesus returns He shall take over the Earth and set up Gods Kingdom, and the first fruits shall reign with Jesus forever and ever! PRAISE GOD.
P.S. If Mr. Herbert W. Armstrong is not the end time Elijah in Malachi 4:6-7. Who is? who else restored the true Gospel of God who else lifted the veil of satans deciet? you? I pray for you and hope you take a closer look at Mr Armstrongs teachings, I suggest you prayerfully read and check up on what he says with the bible and with the proper interpretations from the Greek and Hebrew texts.

Arizona, United States
[26-Vol 1]


ON DOCTRINE NOTE:
If you would read your Bible a little more carefully instead of the teachings of Herbert W. Armstrong, you would have read the words of Jesus Christ who stated that John the Baptist was the Elijah to come:

"And if you are willing to accept it, John himself is Elijah who was to come,"
Matthew 11:14.
SEE also: Matthew 17:10-13, Mark 9:11-13, cf. Luke 1:17

If I were you, I would be very, very careful if you wish to contradict what Jesus Christ has said to be the case. Perhaps you do not wish to accept His statement as He noted, but that makes you the authority over Him and that is not acceptable.

Herbert W. Armstrong had no credentials confirming his claim to be a prophet, and you have not even bothered to deal with the issue of the false prophecies that he stated, so you consider him to be a true prophet when God states specifically that he is not, Deuteronomy 18:20-22. The question that is asked over and over on the On Doctrine website is, "Who is the authority, the teacher or the Scripture?" You have chosen your teacher as the authority and ignored the Scripture that denies his claim and have ignored the reality that he was a false prophet because he stated false prophecies, so he lied, not only in relation to the words of the prophecies but also in regards to his claim to be a prophet. It would be impossible for a false prophet to be the prophet promised in Malachi 4:5-6.


#4B
Mathew 17:11 Jesus answered and said to them, " Indeed Elijah is coming first and will restore all things. Here Jesus is talking about an Elijah yet to come. He is speaking in duel prophesy, He speaks of an Elijah yet to come, then He speaks of one who already came and that they did not know him. Just as now they do not know him. Have you read any of Mr Armstrongs books? Mystery of the Ages, The Incredable Human Potential, The United States and Britain in Prophesy. If you haven't, I suggest you read them all along with your Bible prayerfully and see for yourself the good news of the coming Kingdom of God. God is a family, and those of us who overcome and keep the comandments will become Sons of God, and the bride of of Christ. Ephesians 3:14-15 For this reason I bow my knees to the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, 15 from whom the whole family in heaven and earth is named. Romans 8:29 For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. No where in the Bible is the word trinity found. Trinity worship can be traced back to babylons mystery religion, may I suggest you also read the book I'm sending you in the attached files titled The Two Babylons. Thank you for your response, I pray that God may bless you and show you truth.
Arizona, United States
[42-Vol 1]


ON DOCTRINE NOTE:
Since Herbert W. Armstrong presumed to speak in the name of God and prophesied falsely, he is declared by God to be a false prophet, Deuteronomy 18:20-22, so he has no authority. I have read Mystery of the Ages and The Two Babylons, and was not impressed with either.



#5
Robert S. Liichow

Well, I must begin by stating my overall opinion on the article about Jesse Duplantis's apparent visit to heaven. [SEE the article: 1. "The Night Visitor" 2. "Trip To Heaven" ] I am appaled and disgusted. Might I ask who you think you are? Have you visited heaven? It is extremely obvious that you would take this Mrs. Baxter's word over any other professed visitor of heaven, but I would ask you to believe "by faith" that one night God will whisk you away into the heavenly realm so that you perhaps can present another contradictive view of the "caste system" of heaven. I pray that the God of the universe has an overall abundance of mercy on you for being so critical and judgmental about something YOU would not know every fact about. Are you a reader of this book called The Bible? Do you know every fact about every verse about every meaning sprung from every idea presented in the text? I think not. Your arrogance would suggest you know more than God. I would like to be shown one verse that could not have multiple meanings and significances from one perso . . . [rest of note lost during transmission].

United States
[62-Vol 2]


ON DOCTRINE NOTE:
If you wish to contact Robert Liichow, you may send an e-mail message to him at:
HeresyHunter@hotmail.com

You may also visit Robert Liichow's website at:
www.discernment.org

Perhaps you do not see the obvious contradiction in your criticism, because you base your dissent on the fact that Robert Liichow and I have never been to heaven, which we would freely admit, but you assume that Jesse Duplantis has been to heaven and that what he says about what he claims to have seen in heaven is true simply because he says so, but you present no evidence to back his claim. The reality is that Jesse Duplantis has presented himself as a revelator and a prophet but has no credentials to give even an iota of credibility to his claim. The question continually posed on the On Doctrine website is, "Who is the authority, the teacher or the Scripture." You have chosen your teacher and rejected the Scripture, because you wish to believe what Jesse Duplantis says about who you are. Since Jesse Duplantis has no power to make his statements come true, then I will remain with the Scripture. Robert Liichow is able to speak for himself if you will include your e-mail address in your communication to him which you did not in this note.

SEE: the article, Jesse Duplantis



#6A
hand

Its funny how this man brings millions of people to the feet of Christ, and you still seem to bash him. Brother when you can accomplish what he has then you talk. He (hinn) is an anointed man of God. I suggest you stop critizing, and look up to him and see how a true minister of God spreads the kingdom. Also, maybe if you prayed in toungues a bit you will understand what we preach.

New York, United States
[66-Vol 2]


ON DOCTRINE NOTE:
Now, let's deal with the real issues in relation to Benny Hinn.

  1. I have listed four (4) false prophecies that Benny Hinn has given, [ SEE: Benny Hinn prophecies ], so how do you consider him to be a true minister? You have made Benny Hinn your spiritual authority, and in the process you have denied the Scripture that speaks to the issue of Benny Hinn's "prophecies" and you have ignored the directly quoted words of God that condemn Benny Hinn as a false prophet, Deuteronomy 18:20-22. Doesn't it matter to you that Benny Hinn has spoken false prophecies? By speaking prophecies that he claims to have received from God and the Holy Spirit that do not come true, he is making God into a liar. Doesn't that concern you? You are quick to defend your teacher but you make no attempt to defend the character and integrity of God.

    Apparently you believe that what Benny Hinn says is more important than what God says, so you choose to disregard the statements of God and then you place Benny Hinn in the category of the "anointed," whatever that term means to you. There is no teaching in the New Testament that there are anointed ministers or anointed ministries. All believers are anointed, 2 Corinthians 1:21-22, 1 John 2:20, 27, because all believers have the Holy Spirit Who is the anointing and there is no such thing as a "double anointing" because you cannot have more than one Holy Spirit. When you can find the Scriptural foundation for ignoring the statement of God in Deuteronomy 18:20-22, then let me know, because I would like to know how you justify yourself.

  2. You claim that praying in tongues will cause me to "understand what we preach". Will you please provide the Scriptural example where it is taught or shown where anyone praying in tongues is also instructed by that process? How do you claim that speaking in tongues brings understanding? Benny Hinn is one who believes that when a person speaks in tongues, they do not understand what they are saying, but it is the Holy Spirit speaking through that language "with groanings to deep for words". However, it is the Holy Spirit "Himself" who speaks directly to God and not through the manner of "tongues" which are spoken by a human being, Romans 8:26. The apostle Paul also says, ". . . however, in the church I desire to speak five words with my mind so that I may instruct others also, rather than ten thousand words in a tongue," 1 Corinthians 14:19. Since Benny Hinn speaks in a tongue that is not any known human language and speaks outside the parameters of usage established by the apostle Paul, then he does not conform to the definition and usage of tongues found in the Scripture, which is the ability to speak in known human languages not previously known or learned by the speaker.

    The apostle Paul taught that the gift of tongues was a minor gift, 1 Corinthians 13:31, in complete opposition to the Corinthian church who abused the gift and the expression and taught it as the major gift, which is also current Word of Faith and charismatic teaching. It is claimed that everyone should speak in tongues and those who don't should seek the gift until they are able to obtain it, however, the apostle Paul taught that not every believer speaks in tongues, 1 Corinthians 13:30, and since it is a minor gift, the majority of believers do not speak in tongues and are unable to understand what you preach, according to your theology. You need to consider the logical conclusions of what you are claiming to believe. I will obtain my instruction from the Scripture and the Holy Spirit.
Until you make the Scripture your authority, you will never understand how serious is the error that you have adopted.


#6B
I do believe what you are saying, all that I am saying is that you have to be careful calling him a false prophet. First off he preaches salvation thru Jesus Christ, secondly he has devoted his life to spreading the good news all thru the world, thirdly where did you get your info from, did you read it somewhere? Did someone tell you that? Because if so all that is second hand information, you have to find out for yourself and go straight to the source to know the truth of what he said. I belive a lot of judgment has derived from mere assumptions and second hand info. Granted the man may have faltered on some things, but it doesent make him a false prophet. His ministry is confirmed through many signs and wonders. Another point is that although the double portion is biblical, Benny Hinn has mentioned that we are not limited to it becuase we have the Spirit without measure. Why bash someone who preaces Jesus Christ, when you should be bashing companies like MTV who pump our mations young people with poison. Bash them, not Benny Hinn who is litarally preaching the gospel to untold millions. When I mention praying in toungues I mean doing it in the privacy of your own prayer time with God, not in a corparate setting as was the case in corinth. My goodness when will we get the point and get together and fulfill our calls as true believers united as one. I belive you are a man of God, just because you dont believe in healing, toungues and prosperity doesnt make you false it just makes you uninformed in those areas. Search the scriptures for yourself, and really be led by the Spirit. Gods perfect will is expressed in Genesis 1 and 2 before Adams fall. Pay close attention to what was there and whatwas not. and there is the theology that you need. No sickness, no poverty , no lack, there was gold, there was abundance and the list goes on and on. The problem is most seminaries puts man made dogmas in your mind, and take away from the greatness of who he is. We really got to get with the program. Jesus is the same yesterday and forever more.
New York, United States
[70-Vol 2]


ON DOCTRINE NOTE:
The definition of a false prophet is stated by God, and is a person who claims to have received a revelation from God that has not been given by Him, and the verification of that status is the fact that the prophecy did not come true as stated. Benny Hinn represents specifically that definition. It cannot be denied that Benny Hinn is a false prophet, because God has stated the fact in relation to a self-proclaimed prophet who has prophesied falsely. You cannot redefine false prophecies to mean "falter" in order to ignore their true nature or the nature of the person who spoke them. Benny Hinn has failed on many things, not the least of those is his contrived theology, but the worst is his failure as a prophet to which he has neither admitted or repented. It is all very nice that somewhere in all the confusion of twisted theology and prophetic falsehood, that Benny Hinn preaches, a person might hear the gospel, but the end does not justify the means. God says in Deuteronomy 13:1-5, that a prophet, even though he may prophesy correctly and his prophesies come true, may still be a false prophet, however, Benny Hinn's status is defined by God in Deuteronomy 18:20-22.

You can link to audio and video clips of the prophecies that I have listed from the following:

CASTRO (audio)
www.aloha.net/~mikesch/hinn-castro.html

HOMOSEXUALS (audio)
www.aloha.net/~mikesch/hinn-homosexuals.html

JESUS APPEARING (video)
http://biblelight.net/benny-hinn-false-prophet-clip.html

I do not have an audio or video link for his East Coast earthquake prophecy which was given the same night as his Castro and homosexual prophecy.

You do not adopt the same belief about tongues as Benny Hinn, because you apparently believe it is a private prayer language to be used privately, however, Benny Hinn speaks publicly while preaching, which I have seen him do on his own television broadcasts, and there is no one in the audience who can understand what he is saying. Those are the very issues that reveal the current expression of tongues to be different from what is found in the Scripture, because it is never defined as a private prayer language and the use of it in public was for the benefit of those who understood the language being spoken. Tongues in the Scripture is the ability to speak or translate an existing human language not previously learned by the speaker or the translator, and, according to the apostle Paul the ability to speak or translate multiple languages, which is why he stated that he spoke in "tongues" and not just in a "tongue".

The perfect environment in the Garden of Eden has nothing to do with the content of the gospel message or the atoning work by Jesus Christ. If it is expected that the Garden of Eden before the fall is supposed to be the nature of the existence in this life of the Christian church, then you must deal with the reality that none of the apostles, whose teachings were the foundation of the church (Ephesians 2:20), ever experienced that perfection of existence. If they were unable to accomplish that task and it has not been accomplished by any Christian in the history of the church, then why do you think that Benny Hinn's discovery of the magical teaching bears any relation to reality?

Benny Hinn's approach is based an appeal to the desire of the flesh for money, and he claims that God will give a 100-fold return on money given to his ministry, because he claims that giving to his ministry is giving to God. However, strangely enough, Benny Hinn does not receive his salary or fund his ministry by giving his "seed gift" to another ministry in order to receive his 100-fold return from God. He tells people like you to give him money so he can fund his ministry and support his lifestyle. If Benny Hinn took just 1 million dollars a year, which is pocket change for his ministry, and could receive the 100- fold return on that gift to God, he would receive 100 million dollars a year as a return on just that one gift. Then he could give another 1 million and another 1 million - he would never have to ask for another penny for support, but that doesn't happen and it will not happen in your life as well.

If you come to Christianity in order to become rich, you not only come for the wrong reason, you will be disappointed in the process. The theology of man that you have adopted is the theology of Benny Hinn.



#7A
Hi, would you classify ON DOCTRINE as being Calvinistic? Thanks.
[77-Vol 2]


ON DOCTRINE NOTE:
I guess the answer to your question is yes and no. John Calvin did not create the essence of Christian doctrine, but he extracted from the Scripture those ideas which were supported in the Scripture and which he incorporated into his teachings. To the extent that Calvin's teachings conform to that which is taught in the Scripture and are presented on the On Doctrine website, then I would agree that On Doctrine is Calvinistic in that regard.


#7B
OK, so would that mean that all ideas that Arminius correctly extracted from the Bible are on your website as well? By the way, in your opinion, did he correctly extract any? I am just trying to categorize your position. Thank you.
[88-Vol 2]


ON DOCTRINE NOTE:
What kind of a question is that? I am not Arminian and have not claimed to have posted all of his doctrines on the website whether true or false.



#8
Rev. Robert Liichow

Sir,
I do not want you to contact me and I certainly do not want a thank you from anyone. You should be ashamed of yourself for trashing Jesse Duplantis as you have done in this article. I don't know which Bible you are using but apparently it leaves out the part about being judgemental. I don't know much about Jesse Duplantis, but I intend to learn more about him. If he draws the ire of a hypocritical person such as you, he must be doing something right. I only hope that the Lord God will show more mercy to you than you do to others. I have also read a few verses in the Bible in reference to your article. John saw different levels of Heaven. Maybe Mr. Duplantis just described it in a different manner.(Paradise) And when you talk about people having to work to get to the throne, I recall a verse that says "And the leaves are for the healing of the nations". But, I'm probably a heretic to you since I don't agree with your article. And thats fine with me. I know that I am saved by grace and am going to live in the [part of message lost in transmission]
. Thank you.

Country unknown
[78-Vol 2]


ON DOCTRINE NOTE:
SEE the article: Jesse Duplantis

You can send a message to the author of the article, Rev. Robert Liichow, at:
HeresyHunter@hotmail.com You can visit the Robert Liichow website at: www.discernment.org

Since you did not leave a contact e-mail address, I am sure that neither Rev. Liichow or myself have the slightest interest in contacting you.

Before you attempt to criticize Rev. Liichow and call him a hypocrite, you should learn a little bit more about his background and qualifications, which are considerably more extensive than yours.

I think you know much more about Jesse Duplantis than you are willing to admit, because to defend a person about which you claim to know very little is certainly not the best of choices unless you are certain of your position. I do not find your claim that because there is a disagreement with Jesse Duplantis that you are accepting his position, which is a claim that I hear all the time from his followers, who hope that I will be discouraged into thinking that the article is having an opposite effect from what was intended. Obviously it has had exactly the effect that I intended, because it stirred you to action.

You remember the comment and verse about the "healing of the nations" from my comment at the end of the article by Rev. Liichow:
"What is this spiritual growth accomplished by eating the fruit of the Tree of Life? What is the "healing" accomplished by sniffing the leaves? In heaven, what spiritual growth is necessary (because all are like Christ) and what healing is needed (since all have glorified bodies)? The leaves of the Tree of Life, in heaven, are for the healing of the nations, Revelation 22:2. There is only a single Tree of Life in heaven which bears 12 different fruits every month. There are not many trees as were seen by Jesse Duplantis, cf. Revelation 22:2."
By quoting the verse, you undermine your case before you even present it, because the healing of the nations is not what Jesse Duplantis is describing in relation to sniffing the leaves in heaven, but he is describing an individual's personal quest to become acceptable in order to appear in the presence and before the throne of God. That is quite a different concept than the healing of the nations. There is nothing in the Scripture that indicates that sniffing the leaves is the manner in which they are used in order to effect the healing of the nations.

Disagreement does not necessarily equate to a charge of heresy, so you assume too much for yourself at this point.

SEE: The answer to #5 above.



#9
I just have a question concerning the conception of this website? Could you tell myself and others about how God has called you into this ministry? Or perhaps I should ask how you were directed by God to create this site? Maybe it is just me but a Hall of Shame doesn't quite sound too consistent with the nature or character of the loving God that we profess to serve. It sounds more like the sinful nature that He calls us to put to death daily, but I'll let you be the judge of that. Basicaly my question sounds like this - is everything that you are doing what God has called you to do? I pray that you'll know His will and that you'd do it for His glory and to advance His kingdom.
God bless you.

Country unknown
[79-Vol 2]


ON DOCTRINE NOTE:
Before you sent your message, you should have visited the ABOUT page on the website on which you would have seen the following:
"On Doctrine is an informational resource website, dealing with doctrines and issues of discernment related to biblical theology. On Doctrine is not a ministry."
I do not consider the On Doctrine website to be a ministry and I do not refer to it as such.

I do not claim that God has called me or spoken to me in any manner in relation to posting the On Doctrine website on the Internet, nor do I claim or state that He has directed me as to its content.

If you have spent time reading your Bible, you will have read a history of humanity that includes one of the most specific, graphic and comprehensive Halls of Shame that can be found anywhere. God does not operate in secret and He does not attempt to hide the conduct of those who have claimed to be His followers, beginning with the first of His creation, Lucifer and Adam and Eve. I don't find many Christians challenging God because he chose to record the reprehensible conduct and false teachings of those who claimed to be His followers and also the disastrous consequences that entailed, both to those who were the instigators and those who were the followers, so I find it quite intriguing that Christians today exhibit such a sense of offense and outrage when they find the same elements listed in relation to their favorite teachers. The question that I have is, Why are Christians more interested in defending the immoral and illegal conduct and the false doctrines of their teachers who claim to represent the Kingdom of God? The answer is in the Scripture, because those Christians prefer the conduct and doctrines of their teachers who they have made the authority in their lives, ". . . but wanting to have their ears tickled, they will accumulate for themselves teachers in accordance to their own desires . . ," 2 Timothy 4:3. Who is the authority, the teacher or the Scripture?

The standards for leadership in the church are found in 1 Timothy 3:1-13 and Titus 1:5-16. If that is not the authority that you accept, then you have made yourself part of the problem.



#10A
Why are you investing so much effort into discrediting Oral Roberts?
California, United States
[92-Vol 2]


ON DOCTRINE NOTE:
I believe that out of over a thousand, there are 2 articles on the On Doctrine website specifically directed toward dealing with Oral Roberts, one written by me, ORAL ROBERTS, and one which is a conversation between me and another individual, ORAL ROBERTS - HIS PROPHECIES. He is mentioned in other articles as well. Since both articles have been posted on the website for over two years, I don't really think that I have been spending a lot of time and effort "discrediting" Oral Roberts. He does a very good job of that himself. I will admit, that sometime later this year there will be a new section on the website that presents quotes from various leaders in the Christian community, of which Oral Roberts will be a part.

The real question is, What do you do with Oral Roberts' false prophecies in relation to Deuteronomy 18:20-22?


#10B
Who do you think you are, God?

Who made you judge? Maybe we should take a look at your life, and see what planks are in your eye.

You ought to spend your energy and excess time you seem to have on helping others in lieu of tearing people down.

California, United States
[93-Vol 2]


ON DOCTRINE NOTE:
I don't think that I have ever claimed to be God, although Oral Roberts subscribes to the theology that the creation of man was God's attempt to duplicate Himself, so like his friend Kenneth Copeland, he also believes that he is a "little god."

I deal with most of your questions in the article on the FAQS page, "Why Do I Criticize God's Anointed?"
Apparently you accept a false prophecy as being a speck in the eye and the revelation of that false prophecy as being a plank in the eye. I am mystified as to how you come to that conclusion.



#11
THIS EXPLANATION IS ALL BULLSHIT!!!!!!! BEFORE YOU TALK AND EXPLAIN SOMETHING JUST ASK YOUR SELF WHAT HAVE YOU DONE YO HELP THE PEOPLE, BECAUSE ALL THE PEOPLE YOU TALKING ABOUT THEY ARE FULFILING WHAT THEY SUPPOSE TO DO.
Country unknown
[94-Vol 2]


ON DOCTRINE NOTE:
To what specific explanation are you referring? If you wish to be critical, then you should at least note the nature of your disagreement and provide some type of reasonable defense.



#12
It is my understanding that Ruth Creech's suit against Oral Roberts was dismissed early on; contrary to what you have said. Also I feel compelled to point out that Oral has never endorsed the various doctrines of Hagin, Copeland, Rodney Howard Browne, etc. but rather maintains friendship with them as a result of their having been the only ministers to offer comfort to him after the deaths of his daughter, son and grandchildren. Unfortunatley the same cannot be said of his son Richard who fully endorses each of them. Also, I can site you a number of physicians who have acknowledged physical verification of such things as restoration of a hip bone and resoration of brain matter after having been prayed for by either Oral or Kathryn Kuhlman. Suggest you read my book "Oral Exam"; Tate Publishing 2004.
Maryland, United States
[99-Vol 2]


ON DOCTRINE NOTE:
Welcome to On Doctrine.
Thank you for your visit and message on the Contact page.

In relation to the lawsuit filed by Ruth Creech, please note the following:
In the original lawsuit, which went through many changes by both parties, the action proceeded as follows:
A.
1. The judge divided the trial into a liability phase and a damages phase.
2. After the beginning of the liability portion of the trial, Ruth Creech dismissed her claims against Dr. Michael Laughlin and Dr. Brent Bennett.
3. After that, a motion was presented and the judge entered a directed verdict regarding the issues of fraud, in favor of Oral Roberts, Richard Roberts, OREA (Oral Roberts Evangelistic Association), the Hospital and the Center, charges which had been added to her lawsuit by Ruth Creech. The motion and judgment was the result of a deal in which Ruth Creech agreed to drop certain charges in  exchange for a covenant agreement not to appeal the directed verdict. OREA then paid Ruth Creech an undisclosed and secret sum and agreed that the Hospital and the Center would not attempt to collect her outstanding hospital bills. That agreement resulted in Oral Roberts, Richard Roberts and the Oral Roberts Evangelistic Association being eliminated as parties to the case in relation to fraudulent actions. The directed verdict was not based on the guilt or innocence of Oral Roberts or Richard Roberts, but as a result of a legal agreement which was seen as a benefit by the plaintiff and defendants. It is likely that Ruth Creech agreed to the directed verdict because of the difficulty in proving intent in relation to fraud and Oral and Richard Roberts agreed to pay her the secret amount in order to reduce their exposure to the bad press that had been developed.  
4. The jury found against the medical center and the doctor, Dr. Michael McGee, based on the claim of Ruth Creech to a lack of informed consent. 
5. All parties to the case then appealed the decision, including Ruth Creech.
6. Ruth Creech based her appeal on the fact that her medical bills had been excluded from the original trial and the damages awarded to her by the jury ($50,000.00) were less than her medical expenses ($78,711.38 claimed) due to the jury being uninformed of the true extent of her medical bills.
B. The case went to the Court of Appeals and the decision was rendered as follows:
1. Jurisdiction of the Ohio court was lacking over the doctor, Dr. Michael McGee, who was located in Oklahoma and he was dismissed from the case.
2. The medical center's claim that it was not responsible for the act of a physician even when employed by the center, Dr. McGee, because the allegations of malpractice were not within the scope of his employment, were denied by the court and the responsibility of the medical center was upheld.
3. Jurisdiction could be asserted over the medical center because of television advertising by evangelist Oral Roberts broadcast in the state of Ohio, which was the state in which Ruth Creech filed the lawsuit.
4. Oklahoma law stated that the medical center was entitled to a credit against the monetary judgment against it in the amount of the settlement agreed to previously with Ruth Creech. That amount was secret, so the court was remanded the responsibility to deal with the difficulty.
5. Ruth Creech was entitled to a new trial on damages, based on the fact that the court had erroneously excluded her medical bills as evidence in the trial.
The court outlined the reasoning presented by Ruth Creech in relation to her claims against Oral Roberts as follows:
"Essentially, Creech's theory of the case, though never proven in its entirety, was as follows: The City of Faith Hospital and medical and Research Center were suffering financial difficulties. To generate income for them, OREA decided to solicit contributions and patients for the City of Faith facilities. To increase contributions and entice patients to travel to the City of Faith, the 'Expect A Miracle' programming was produced. Oral Roberts and Richard Roberts appeared on the programs claiming that those who went to the City of Faith would receive a special kind of healing treatment, augmented by the power of God. Creech saw the programs and believed that she would experience God's healing power if she went to the City of Faith. She sought treatment there and was told that she needed surgery. Ultimately, surgery was performed without her being fully informed of other treatment options. This behavior by the doctors was allegedly part of the fraudulent plan, never proven at trial, to keep patients at the City of Faith in order to squeeze as much money out of them as possible."
The issue of fraud in relation to Oral Roberts and Richard Roberts was eliminated from consideration by the court and deliberation by the jury as a result of the agreement between them and Ruth Creech and the unspecified payment to her which was designed to secure her silence, blunt the effect of the charges and also compensate her monetarily.

The court did affirm the charges of lack of informed consent brought against the medical center and Dr. McGee, which resulted in the jury awarding the $50,000.00 to Ruth Creech, although Dr. McGee was removed from the case due to the jurisdictional decision by the appeals court.

The decision of the appeals court to vacate the damages awarded to Ruth Creech in the original trial ($50,000.00) was not based on the merits of the award in which it was determined that she did not deserve the award, but because the award was improper based on the amount of her claim which was greater than the amount awarded and the fact that her actual hospital bills were improperly excluded from the evidence, therefore, vacating the award allowed for her to pursue a new trial in relation to the damages, which was the basis and reason for her appeal.

The reality is, that Oral Roberts was his own worst enemy in the entire City of Faith fiasco, in which he claimed specific statements were made to him by God that eventually revealed results that were the opposite of what he claimed God had said, and he used those claimed statements as the basis for his fund raising efforts. Originally claiming that the 8 million dollars God commanded him to raise (or God would call him home) were to be used to send out medical missionaries,  the money was actually used in the attempt to forestall the financial failure of the City of Faith. That act alone might have given credence to Ruth Creech's claim that she was part of a system of fraudulent actions on the part of Oral and Richard Roberts in order to raise money for the falling City of Faith. Whether that was actually the case or simply a claim to support a court action, will probably be an issue for history to determine since it was removed from the scope of the court to determine.

I don't think it is accurate to claim that Oral Roberts does not fit within the sphere of other Word of Faith proponents such as Kenneth Copeland, Kenneth Hagin or Rodney Howard-Browne, because he is part of the same group. His association with them is not simply out of a sense of obligation to them as a result of their kindness to him. He is deeply allied with their ministries, associates with them in ministry and provides a forum for their teachings.

It is true that there is no unified theology in relation to what is defined as Word of Faith doctrine, however, that does not preclude the fact that there are certain elements which identify those who adhere to that particular position, and the differences that may be apparent between individuals are not considered to be significant within the context of their ministries. The fact that every Word of Faith teacher does not rigidly adhere to every belief and teaching of every other Word of Faith teacher does not exclude them from association with each other or being identified within the Word of Faith sphere.

Oral Roberts would not and does not disassociate himself from the teachings of Kenneth Hagin or from ministry association with Kenneth Copeland and Rodney Howard-Browne.

When Rodney Howard-Browne was invited to speak at Oral Roberts University, Oral Roberts made the following statement to him:
"When my son Richard went down to Lakeland where you had preached ...when he got in the building [Carpenter's Home Church], the Spirit of the Lord fell on him and he couldn't preach. He fell down under the power of God and he laughed and he laughed and we put it on our Sunday morning ...television program two Sundays in a row. And there's been more talk over those two half hours than we've had in months and months. People have been laughing all over America through those two programs that Richard made while he was there ...and my wife and I sat there and we watched and we laughed and we cried. I guess I'm the most moved tonight because God is in the now.... And the stream is always flowing. It ebbs and it tides. And every so often He says, 'It's time for another level of my move.' And He lays His hand on someone that nobody thought about. None of us were ever known by people. Nobody would have selected us. But the King of kings and Lord of lords knows something we don't know.... And my brother, the Lord brought me here tonight. I've never met you in the flesh. I was in South Africa twice in Wembley Stadium, when 30,000 came a night and your family was there but you weren't born at that time. I believe you said your brother was saved in that meeting but I just want you to know that I know who you are. [He laid a hand on Rodney Howard-Browne's shoulder and began to speak in tongues.] Raised up from a new kind of seed. With a new kind of revelation that those in the Spirit will know what it is. Those who are not in the Spirit and will never get in it will not know, so we cannot blame them. Yet a fresh wave. It's not something you're doing."
Kenneth Copeland states that Oral Roberts is an apostle and an evangelist, and Oral Roberts accepts Kenneth Copeland's claim to be a prophet:
"When god speaks...there are the apostles, the prophets, evangelists, pastors, and teachers. All of those offices are prophetic. No such thing as a non-prophetic office of God because God's the one that's doing the speaking. But Oral Roberts is an apostle, an evangelist."
"I've been called into the office of the prophet and teacher."
Kenneth Copeland with Oral Roberts and Richard Roberts, August 26, 2004.
Oral Roberts is the author of the fund raising method used in virtually every major Word of Faith ministry, with is the teaching about "Seed Faith," or the doctrine of "Giving and Receiving."

Oral Roberts subscribes to the teaching that God uses His own faith to create, which is the same teaching presented by Kenneth Copeland and others when it is claimed that God used faith to create the universe. Oral Roberts has said:
"Scripture says that God called those things that were not as though they were. In some mysterious way that's described as believing by faith. God saw something that was not. It existed in His faith and was as real to Him as if it were already there.
And what did God see? He wanted somebody He could love, and He saw man, who did not exist, as if he did. And God called man's body out of the ground and his spirit into being. God knew that man would go away from Him. So then He called His Son to be slain before the foundation of the world for man's redemption.
As we look at the things we must do to obey God, we realize that the only way we can do them is by calling them, by faith, as though they already were. That's what God did, and I believe that's what He expects us to do when He tells us in Mark 11:22 to have faith in God."
Daily Guide to Miracles, July 8, 2005

"You have the same creative faith and ability on the inside of you that God used when he created the heavens and the earth."
Inner Image of the Covenant, Kenneth Copeland, side 2.
The following doctrines were and are taught by Kenneth Hagin, Kenneth Copeland and Oral Roberts:
1. Healing is part of and guaranteed in the atonement.
2. Believers have a "legal" right to healing.
3. Being healed is simply receiving what God has already promised.
4. Healing can be lost because the devil can steal it away from the person.
5. Faith, coupled with the proper words (positive confession), will cause God to act resulting in healing or whatever other request is being made.
6. God does not afflict people with disease.
7. God wants every believer to be healthy and wealthy, and if they are not it is their fault because of lack of faith.
8. Jesus was a wealthy man with a large, well-funded ministry and wore expensive clothes and lived in a sumptuous residence.
9. Agreement between two or more believers regarding a particular need or want will cause God to act positively on a person's behalf and grant the request, (Prayer of Agreement doctrine).
10. Salvation can be lost.
11. Jesus appears personally in visions and in person.
12. Believers have the authority to "bind the devil."
Whatever differences might exist between Oral Roberts and other Word of Faith teachers are considered to be unimportant by them, because those issues do not prevent them from associating in ministry with each other or providing forums for teaching opportunities to each other by means of television programs and appearances in various meetings. This is especially true in the relationship that Oral Roberts has with Kenneth Copeland, who was the person Oral Roberts contacted to appear with him on television when Oral Roberts' latest revelation was revealed and discussed, and was also evidenced by the fact that Kenneth Hagin was present with Oral Roberts when they both attempted to heal Lindsay Robert's infant son, which failed. Marilyn Hickey was the chairman of the board of regents of Oral Roberts University which also includes Jesse Duplantis, Kenneth Copeland, Billy Joe Daugherty and Creflo Dollar, all of whom are a major part of the Word of Faith group.

The issue is not whether God can heal, or at some time somewhere during the ministry of Oral Roberts or Kathryn Kuhlman there has been someone who God has healed. The issue is whether healing is occurring in the manner in which Oral Roberts claims and Kathryn Kuhlman claimed. It might be possible to point to an individual who recovered from some type of ailment and claim them as an example of a healing that was accomplished as a result of a prayer offered by Oral Roberts or Kathryn Kuhlman. However, again that is also not the issue, because healing in the ministries of Oral Roberts and Kathryn Kuhlman is based on a claim that those healings are a continuation of New Testament patterns and that people are healed today just as they were in Jesus', day because God is the same today as He was yesterday. The claims are made, stating that every Christian has a right to be healed and can be healed and that untold tens of thousands of people have been healed under the auspices of the ministries of Oral Roberts and Kathryn Kuhlman - and that is the problem.

If those are the claims that are being made and the standards that are being applied, then where are those healings? The ministries of Oral Roberts and Kathryn Kuhlman were built on the foundation of healing, which was the major emphasis of both. So the claim that a minuscule few of those healings are verified while the majority of those healings are the invisible type just does not conform to the biblical pattern exemplified by Jesus Christ and the apostles.
"Jesus was going throughout all Galilee, teaching in their synagogues and proclaiming the gospel of the kingdom, and healing every kind of disease and every kind of sickness among the people."
Matthew 4:23 (NAS).
Jesus Christ healed in every situation and every venue, and He healed every person who was presented before Him, which included those who believed in Him and those who did not. He healed those with faith and those without faith on an unconditional basis, which is not the case with Oral Roberts and Kathryn Kuhlman. He healed the invisible diseases and the visible, which is something that has not happened in the ministries of Oral Roberts and Kathryn Kuhlman. It is easy to claim massive numbers of healings when they are of the invisible type, but it is quite another issue to claim massive numbers of visible healings when there are none to claim and is the reason that the visible healings are strangely absent in those claims.



#13
Boy, it must have taken you a long time to set up this website downing the Copeland Ministry. The only thing I can say is 'WHAT IS YOUR MOTIVE and what happened in your life to make you so passionate about what they are doing? "

I have followed KCM for a while, and you have things mixed up a lot. The Copelands have written at least 60-100 books, so what makes you think they are living off donations? Kenneth also sings, and they have made several DVD's.

His main topic is "love the Lord with all you heart, with all your soul with all your mind and your strength and love your neighbor as yourself."

You seem too angry to exude love for a ministry.

Let's just preach the Gospel as Jesus says. Another thing, they have healing school with all their USA meetings and someone always gets healed. The also give a lot. I personally have received tape series from them for free. (sometimes 15-20 CD's in a set)

No name, United States
[109-Vol 3]


ON DOCTRINE NOTE:
It would be be so helpful if you would just try to deal with the issues raised in the articles, but it seems to be just too difficult for you to face reality. A free set of 15-20 CD's of false teaching is no gift and no bargain.

SEE the articles:
"Kenneth Copeland"
"Kenneth Copeland, Kenneth Hagin, Mark 11:12-23 and False Prophecies"
"Kenneth Copeland: What Did He Say?"
"Kenneth Copeland: Touching God's Anointed?"



#14
Hello,

In a report on Ted Armstrong--fascinating information by the way--the following statement was made:

"It is obvious that the body of man, in its present state, has no ability to attain to immortality. But, in spite of Garner Ted Armstrong's own words, the real man, THE SOUL, DOES HAVE IMMORTALITY and attains that state at conception. As such, man is an immortal being whether he chooses to be or not. At his creation, God created Adam with his lifeless body, but then breathed into him the Life of God with is inherent attribute of immortality. Because man's spiritual immortality is an attribute of the God who created him, man will never, and can never, be sent into oblivion or annihilated." (CAPS mine)

I would refer the writer to Ezekial 18:4 ...

"Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: THE SOUL THAT SINNETH, IT SHALL DIE." (CAPS mine)

Here the Bible clearly states that souls die, which is in direct contradiction of the statement above that "the soul does have immortality".

Let me repeat. The Bible says the exact opposite of what the statement above teaches. What is the duty of the child of God? To believe the Bible, or a contradictory doctrinal statement?

Please consider prayerfully.

Please note that this is in no way intended to defend Ted Armstrong or his beliefs.

God bless,"

Michigan, United States
[114-Vol 3]


ON DOCTRINE NOTE:
There are two questions that must be considered in relation to Ezekiel 18:4:
(1) Is the word "soul" in reference to the eternal component of man or something else?
(2) Does the word death refer to annihilation or something else?

Ezekiel 18:4 does not refer to every person but only those who sin, ". . . the soul that sinneth, it shall die." The problem is apparent, because what about the person who does not sin? What happens to their soul? The problem is compounded, because every human being does sin, so their souls must all die. Reading further in Ezekiel 18, the following verse states:
"'If he has walked in My statutes and kept My judgments faithfully - he is just; he shall surely live!' Says the Lord God." vs. 9 (NKJV)
The problem is again compounded, because vs. 9 defines two categories of souls; those who die and those who live and those who live do so eternally. Question number 1 is answered by vs. 9, because there is an eternal component that has the capability and actuality of life after death, ". . .he shall surely live!" The idea that verses 4 and 9 refer only to physical, mortal life is denied, because the contrast is between verse 4 and verse 9 which is a contrast between death and life. Physical, mortal life is not the issue, because all human beings die whether they are sinful or righteous, which forces the subject into a treatise on the nature and destination of the soul.

Question number 2 becomes the next issue and the definition of death and life in the two verses. Since every human being, both righteous and unrighteous, dies but verse 9 says that the just will live, the definition of death and life in verses 4 and 9 is something additional to physical death. Ezekiel 18: and Genesis 2:17; 3:3, use the same word for die, and it does not mean annihilation. Adam and Even were told by God that they would die, which they understood to be physical death, but they were not given any instruction about their bodies or souls being annihilated.

The apostle Paul states that for the believer, to be absent from the physical body is to be present with the Lord, so there is a personality of being that continues to exist apart from the body and after the physical death of the body, 2 Corinthians 5:8.

In Luke 16:19-31, Jesus gave an example of death, both for the unrighteous and the righteous, which also included life after death for the same individuals, which precludes the idea that death can be defined as annihilation.



#15
Robert Liichow
I am sending this in reference to your article in reference to Jesse Duplantis seeing an angel that told him to go to sleep. Let me ask you a question. If you read the verse in the Bible that says God has even the hairs on our head numbered, not counted, but he knows the number of actual hairs we will ever have on our head, then would you not think He in his loving kindess and compassion be concerned whether or not we get enough sleep. And let me ask you another question. If the angel told him something that would be helpful to him, would you really think it came from the Devil? Unless you think the Devil is a source of goodness, which you may.. I just happen to disagree with you and if maybe YOU read YOUR Bible a little more, you would seem a little more educated and a little less religious. Thank you.

location unknown
[119-Vol 3]


ON DOCTRINE NOTE:
I could not forward your message to Robert Liichow because you did not include an e-mail address. So I will reply as if the message was for me.

I am not sure why reading my Bible a little more would make the claims of Jesse Duplantis any more acceptable. We just have Jesse Duplantis' word regarding the event, which has no confirmation in the Scripture. Of course an appearance by an angel could be from Satan, if the intent was to secure the person's trust and confidence. The problem with the appearance is, Jesse Duplantis was already in bed trying to get some sleep and then the angel appears, scaring him to death for the rest of the night and the claim is that the message was for Jesse to get some sleep. Why didn't God just leave him alone so he could get some sleep?

Allow me to ask you a question. If I were to tell you that one night while sleeping, I was taken to heaven and sat on God's knee while He told me that after the resurrection, I would personally be in charge of all the angelic hosts, would you believe me? You probably would not, but you believe Jesse Duplantis, and he has no more authority or verification to present regarding his claim than I have. It's a matter of discernment. (By the way - I didn't go to heaven - just in case you thought I might be making an actual claim.)

SEE: the article, JESSE DUPLANTIS



#16
The funniest thing about this website is the "Organizations" section which has a number of organizations listed, each defined as correct doctrine, incorrect doctrine, heretical doctrine, etc. The list has only 4 listed as correct doctrine, all deriving from the southern United States within the past 50 years. That's believable! One of the last places on earth to cling to the institution of slavery is the only correct doctrine on spirituality...
California, United States
[124-Vol 3]


ON DOCTRINE NOTE:
The list in the organizations section is not a comprehensive list by any stretch of the imagination, so your attempt to create an issue is very much in error. So, the new criteria for truth is now geographic location and what an individual currently teaches is invalidated by what someone else in history taught or believed about slavery? Those are absurd standards.



#17
whoever

I am so tired of you people doing the devils work in trying to discredit every ministry out there.

I don't care if it's Oral Roberts or the little man who stands in front of the market collecting money for poor people. I rarely get angry like this, but in doing research on different ministries, trying to decipher who and what is good for me and my family in regards to which study resources to purchase, which programs to listen to online etc., I have encountered more hate filled jargon such as yours and all you do is create tension and wreck havoc. Not that I have ALL the answers, but what I do know, for a fact, because I heard it at my church from the source, is that Oral Roberts Seed/Faith ministry is NOT about donating money for the sole purpose of getting more money in return. I won't even bother explaining it to you, but try reading the book first before you spew this untruth; make certain YOU aren't twisting the truth in order to make yourselves and your invalid points more appealing. Also, do not, I repeat do not bother answering this email; I know your type and I know the sort of answer you will attempt to give; as with all else you do, it will holy roller, bible thumpin, self righteousness...which I wonder if people who do what you do even truly believe, or are you simple haters of God and want to spew that hatred out into the world...well, too late, that hate is already out there; you're not the first, nor, to my displeasure and saddness, will you be the last. I have to ask the Lord to give me the desire to pray for you because in my flesh, I can not...and yes, that is a biblical principle: the Lord makes it clear that we can do nothing good and nothing pure without the hope and help of the Holy Spirit in us...I wish I had my bible with me right now, but the scripture is written by Paul, I believe it is Romans where he talks about doing what he doesn't want to do and not being able to do what he wants to do...of course, you're the bible expert, so I'm sure you could probably quote it word for word.

Sorry for you and for myself for letting you get to me...I will be in prayer and asking the Lord to reveal to me, through the Spirit how to be at peace when this stuff permeates our church, our world...and yes, asking the Lord, the Holy Spirit for guidance, why, that too is scriptural.

No name, No location
[126-Vol 3]


ON DOCTRINE NOTE:
See the articles:
ORAL ROBERTS
RICHARD ROBERTS
"Giving and Receiving," the doctrine of Seed Faith



#18
Were the apostles and prophets any better than the men and women you criticize? Are you any better than the people you criticize? You seem bitter and cheap... crying because your ministry is so much smaller than theirs. I suspect you're guilty of the same things for which you condemn others
United States
[Guest Book]


ON DOCTRINE NOTE:
The first particular that needs to be addressed is the fact that On Doctrine is not a ministry, never has been a ministry and never will be a ministry. I do not call it a ministry, I do not refer to it as a ministry and on the On Doctrine ABOUT page ( www.ondoctrine.com/00about.htm ) the following statements are posted:

"On Doctrine is an informational resource website, dealing with doctrines and issues of discernment related to biblical theology. On Doctrine is not a ministry."

"ONDOCTRINE.COM is not operated by or funded by any organization, corporation or entity of any type other than the individual owner. ONDOCTRINE.COM does not solicit or accept funding of any type, either from grants or donations."

If I am trying to build a large organization and crying because it hasn't happened, then I am going about the task in the wrong manner, wouldn't you think?

The second particular is the fact that it has become very popular to create a scenario regarding the life of the person who raises critical questions and issues, in the attempt to deny credibility in relation to those issues, as if the validity of those issues somehow hinges outside the parameters of truth or falsehood. I do not claim to be better than anyone else and I do not claim that my life is the standard to which everyone else should be compared. The apostle Paul stated that he was the least of the apostles, 1Corinthians 15:9, so, was the apostle Paul's criticism of the apostle Peter, Galatians 2:11-21, valid because the apostle Paul was "better" than the apostle Peter or because the apostle Peter was guilty as charged? Your "suspicions" are simply wishes, hopes that some negative content in my life will allow you to disregard the statements that I have posted on the website. Issues are valid or invalid within themselves because they are either true or false as to content and not because of the character of the person who might be bringing bad news. Failure to deal with those issues and the biblical foundation presented in relation to them will simply be your loss.

The third particular, is the fact that the issues raised on the website are not about sinless perfection in the lives of leaders or their critics. The issues are not comparisons to conduct among individuals in which they are graded on a curve in relation to each other, where their own conduct becomes the standard established by themselves. The Scripture is the standard applied, and as it relates to leadership, 1 Timothy 3 and Titus 1 are the directives mandated by the apostle Paul under the authority of the Holy Spirit. It is easy to dismiss the peccadillos of our favorite teachers as being unimportant when we step outside the parameters of the biblical imperatives, but that only removes the authority of the Scripture and establishes the authority of those teachers and ourselves in its place, which is not acceptable.

If you wish to discuss the statements on the On Doctrine website, in relation to the individuals that concern you, as to their connection with the Scriptures that I have mentioned, then I will be happy to address those concerns.



#19
you people are stupid, you dont buid a ministry, by putting other ones down,I just happened across your "article" on Kenneth copeland,YOU people havent got a clue, I pray that you will Have the scales fall from your eyes, and get nocked off your donkey, cuz you need it.wont ever come back to this web site,ever!
United States
[Guest Book]


ON DOCTRINE NOTE:
Please note that On Doctrine is not a ministry and I am the only person involved with the website, as you would have realized if you had visited the About page at, ( www.ondoctrine.com/00about.htm )

There are several articles about Kenneth Copeland, so I do not know which one you read. They are located on the website at:
www.ondoctrine.com/10copela.htm -- "Kenneth Copeland"
www.ondoctrine.com/conversa/3word001.htm -- "Kenneth Copeland: What Did He Say?"
www.ondoctrine.com/conversa/3word006.htm -- "Kenneth Copeland: Touching Gods Anointed?"
www.ondoctrine.com/conversa/3word004.htm -- "Kenneth Copeland, Kenneth Hagin, Mark 11:12-23 and False Prophecies"

If you wish to defend Kenneth Copeland, then you must present a defense from the Scripture and not an emotional reaction to information that upsets you. If you are unwilling to do that, it is your loss, but if you are unable to do that, then you have no defense to present and no foundation on which you can base your belief and trust in Kenneth Copeland as your spiritual leader.

I repeat the question that is asked over and over again on the website: Who is your authority, your teacher or the Scripture?



#20
After reading through your web site I find it quite interesting that you have mentioned so many "charismatic" and "faith movement) preachers failures and faults but have not listed others such as Charles Stanley's divorce. Not so much his divorce but more so his ability to continue to serve as head pastor although the First Baptist doctrinal view is against it. There are others also which there is no need to carry on naming everyone but I just thought it was interesting, unless I have missed some areas on your sight that show otherwise. In that case please forgive my overlook. Thanks
No name, No location
[134-Vol 3]


ON DOCTRINE NOTE:
The listing on the On Doctrine website is not comprehensive, so there are many individuals who are not listed. I also have limited time, so items are posted as I complete the research and in relation to my interests. I am aware of Dr. Stanley's divorce, but I do not know the exact circumstances. Scripture does not preclude a man who is divorced from serving as a pastor if he was not the cause and was not disqualified by immoral conduct, although many churches have historically refused a pastor even under those circumstances. Perhaps someone could inform me of the nature of Dr. Stanley's divorce.



#21
Hello.

My name is [NAME REMOVED], and I am contacting you about your information on C.T. Russell. Wikipedia.org has a more correct biography. He did not start the JW's. Rutherford has the honor of doing that.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Taze_Russell-

I am with the original movement that Br. Russell founded, and want to set the record straight. I did appreciate the opening sentance of your article where he is called a wandering star, though: it's an indirect confirmation of our belief that Br. Russell was one of the seven 'stars' in the angels hand:

Rev. 16: And he had in his right hand seven stars: and out of his mouth went a sharp two edged sword: and his countenance was as the sun.

Of course, in this symbolic book the sword is the bible (old and new testaments); the sun is the 'gospel', and these stars are 7 individuals throughout the gospel age that guided the true church.

Well, if you strive for accuracy, the Wikepedia version is well documented: yours is not.

Sincerely,

Mississippi, United States
[138-Vol. 3]


ON DOCTRINE NOTE:
Your claim that Rutherford started the Jehovah's Witnesses is incorrect, because it is simply an attempt to disassociate the organization from its founder and attribute its origins to another individual. "Judge" Joseph F. Rutherford became the successor and leader of the Watch Tower Bible and Tract Society in 1916 upon the death of Charlez Taze Russell. Rutherford led the main branch of the schismatic group under that name until the name of the organization was changed to Jehovah's Witnesses in 1931, fifteen years after he assumed leadership from Russell. The change in name did not result in the establishment of a new organization, but simply continued the same organization under a new name.

Nothing really changed under Rutherford, except for the imposition of Rutherford's theology and centralized leadership, but the same false prophecies were promoted and the same denials were made that the prophecies had never been stated, which was the same standard practiced under the leaership of Russell and is the same under current leadership. If you wish to believe that Rutherford is one of the seven stars of Revelation just because he said so, then you should also believe that any claim that any other person might make is also true.



#22
You got this all wrong and I'm sorry the devil has gotten to you and your heart. You are obviously not a bible reader yourself. People can make mistakes duh! we are humans. Preachers for the most part have all had bad backgrounds which is why they found God. They CONFESSED those sins that you posted on the internet and were forgiven by God. You need to do the same for yourself and do the right thing. Take this page off the internet. It is as dirty as pornos.
No name, No location
[191-Vol 4]


ON DOCTRINE NOTE:
So, you justify the false doctrine or immoral or illegal conduct of a pastor because they, "for the most part have all had bad backgrounds." Every human being comes from a bad background and is a sinner, but that is not the issue at all in relation to the people discussed on the On Doctrine website.

As I have replied in a note above,
"If you have spent time reading your Bible, you will have read a history of humanity that includes one of the most specific, graphic and comprehensive Halls of Shame that can be found anywhere. God does not operate in secret and He does not attempt to hide the conduct of those who have claimed to be His followers, beginning with the first of His creation, Lucifer and Adam and Eve. I don't find many Christians challenging God because he chose to record the reprehensible conduct and false teachings of those who claimed to be His followers and also the disastrous consequences that entailed, both to those who were the instigators and those who were the followers, so I find it quite intriguing that Christians today exhibit such a sense of offense and outrage when they find the same elements listed in relation to their favorite teachers. The question that I have is, Why are Christians more interested in defending the immoral and illegal conduct and the false doctrines of their teachers who claim to represent the Kingdom of God? The answer is in the Scripture, because those Christians prefer the conduct and doctrines of their teachers who they have made the authority in their lives, ". . . but wanting to have their ears tickled, they will accumulate for themselves teachers in accordance to their own desires . . ," 2 Timothy 4:3. Who is the authority, the teacher or the Scripture? The standards for leadership in the church are found in 1 Timothy 3:1-13 and Titus 1:5-16. If that is not the authority that you accept, then you have made yourself part of the problem."

#23
I just have one word for you.

CLOSE YOUR SITE TODAY AND REPENT.

You are sitting in the judgement seat of Christ.
You are operating our of pride and arrogance.
There is no biblical mandate for you to sit in judgement over the body of Christ.
You are heaping judgement upon judgment upon yourself.
You are commanded to "love one another." 1 John 3 you are miserably failing this command.
Repent, repent, repent.
This is not a calling from the Lord. You are in error!
I'll keep you guys in prayer, whew! How did you end up like this!.

Illinois, United States
[192-Vol 4]


ON DOCTRINE NOTE:
There is only one "guy" associated with the On Doctrine website. You can view the bio information at, ABOUT.

Apparently you do not seem to see the contradiction between what you are saying and what you claim I am doing. If criticism is forbidden to me, then it is also forbidden to you.

Yes, Christians are commanded to love one another, however, love does not include acceptance of false doctrine or illegal or immoral conduct on the part of leadership. The standards for leadership in the church are found in 1 Timothy 3:1-13 and Titus 1:5-16. If that is not the authority that you accept, then you have made yourself part of the problem.

"I wrote to you in my letter not to associate with immoral people; I did not at all mean with the immoral people of this world, or with the covetous and swindlers, or with idolaters, for then you would have to go out of the world. But actually, I wrote to you not to associate with any so-called brother if he is an immoral person, or covetous, or an idolater, or a reviler, or a drunkard, or a swindler—not even to eat with such a one. For what have I to do with judging outsiders? Do you not judge those who are within the church? But those who are outside, God judges. Remove the wicked man from among yourselves."
1 Corinthians 5:11-13 (NAS)

"If you are reviled for the name of Christ, you are blessed, because the Spirit of glory and of God rests on you. Make sure that none of you suffers as a murderer, or thief, or evildoer, or a troublesome meddler; but if anyone suffers as a Christian, he is not to be ashamed, but is to glorify God in this name. For it is time for judgment to begin with the household of God; and if it begins with us first, what will be the outcome for those who do not obey the gospel of God?"
1 Peter 4:14-17 (NAS)

I have dealt with many of your concerns previously in an article on the website at: Why Do I Criticize God's Anointed?



#24A
Wow, I read your article on Kenneth Copeland and I've got to say you are very thorough!!!
    It was interesting to read your article from the perspective of someone who has been a partner with KCM for about 15+ years now. Many of the claims you made about the deceived people who embrace the "health and wealth gospel" are correct in the beginning but the seemingly assumed motivation of those people and the result of our lives is just not true.
     Are there people with less than honorable intentions that are attracted by what they think the Word of Faith message is about? I would say yes. But don't judge us all by the example of an immature believer. My suggestion would be to get to know some solid folks of the persuasion that you feel we are. I would even suggest getting to know the ministry of Kenneth and Gloria Copeland beyond the dissecting of the sentences and paragraphs. Don't get me wrong, hold us to a high standard but get to know the words between the ones you're dissecting as well.
     I would suggest coming to a number of Believer's Conventions (3 each summer) or a Victory Campaign or watching the daily broadcast (you can even get it as a podcast). The Washington D.C Victory Campaign is coming up the beginning of next month. I'm sure you will hear many things that you won't like but hopefully you'll come away knowing the heart and integrity of the ministry a little better. I would really suggest coming the the Partner's Meetings that are always Friday mornings. You'll see and hear what all those dollars are doing and you'll find out that you won't be begged once for money :-)
    Kenneth and Gloria are not perfect, nor is Jesse Duplantis or Jerry Savelle, nor am I but we are pressing in to know Him more and believe me if there is anything that marks these ministries it is an utmost honor and reverence for God. He is THE source and though we are joint heirs with Jesus we are those joint heirs because He made us to be so not because we said we were. We said we were because He made us to be so, not the other way around.

Best Regards,

No location given
[193-Vol 4]


ON DOCTRINE NOTE:
The ministry of Kenneth and Gloria Copeland and what followers believe about that ministry is determined by what they say, and those statements are comprised of the sentences and paragraphs which are the structure of the teaching and belief system that they promote. What they say, which is the substance of their teaching and doctrine, is different from what the Scriptures say, and that is the difficulty. The sentences and paragraphs that they say and write are not detached or isolated from what they represent.

The standard to which everyone is to be held is that found in the Scripture and not that which has been created by Kenneth and Gloria Copeland. Integrity is based on faithfulness to the Scripture and not to doctrines created outside the biblical imperatives by the leader.

Fifteen years is a very long time to be associated with an organization and not realize the fundamental differences between what the leaders of that organization say and what the Scripture says, and still feel good about the affiliation. Word of Faith teaching bases its appeal on feelings and emotions, not doctrine, and you have fallen into the trap that has been set.


#24B
Mr. Hand,
I would just repeat my first email. I don't think you were listening but defending your position.
Again, I would highly suggest coming to a Believer's Convention or Victory Campaign, or any other meeting held by the Copelands and see for yourself how much is based on emotion and how much is based on scripture.
The Word is everything to us and not bending it to fit a doctrine is of utmost importance.
I absolutely agree that what we say is not detached from what werepresent and actually we should only be saying what scripture says. I also agree that this is where the disconnect is. That's why I would encourage you to come to a meeting so you know personally of which you write. You may still choose to disagree but hopefully you will at least have a better personal understanding of where we are coming from scripturally. You'll have opportunity to follow us through scripture and see just how much "emotion" or "good feeling" is where we ground ourselves and hopefully even see a bit of why we are the way we are.
I would also exhort you that as Paul wrote to Ephesians that we will come to the unity of the faith (not the unity of doctrine). I'm definitely not saying doctrine is not important...it is...I am saying just what Paul wrote...we won't be coming to the unity of it. In these last day it is my hope that as believers in the Lord Jesus Christ that we would not spend our time attacking each other but join together to win the lost (including Mormon's). I would think and hope that we could jointly celebrate the millions of souls being saved through Reinhard Bonnke's ministry in Africa. I use that example because we (KCM) often pay the entire expenses for his crusades and it does take a bunch of money! "Word of Faith" folks often get criticized because we believe for finances to do stuff like this but I think they(those that give their lives to Jesus) are worth it.
Anyway, I believe that we can believe God to get the Great Commission accomplished together. You don't have to believe with me to prosper spirit, soul, body, socially and financially but we can still work together if we'll not let our difference separate us.

Best Regards,

[272-Vol 6]



#25
On your page:
http://www.ondoctrine.com/mailcall/00mail03.htm
article 25, [See: Article 25 - 2006 - editor] just after mentioning MacGregor Ministries you said:
"ON DOCTRINE NOTE:
Like I tried to tell you previously that you have made a judgment without reviewing everthing on the website. You are quick to judge without actually doing the research, just as you are quick to accept your teachers without dealing with the issues in relation to the Scripture. That is your great loss."

I am NOT so quick to judge without actually doing the research, nor am I quick to accept my teachers without checking them AND what they say out very carefully.

http://my.tbaytel.net/nitesky/macgregorministries/index.html.

Ontario, Canada
[195, Vol. 4]

ON DOCTRINE NOTE:
The individual making this comment is not the individual making the comment in the original posting, but is using the post as an example of what he considers his own standard of conduct. The link to the web page of the individual presents Christianity from the perspective of the Catholic church, in which that organization is considered to be God's only legitimate representative on earth.

The Catholic Church did not come into existence until hundreds of years after the New Testament was established, but the individual believes that one must be a member of that church in order to be considered a true Christian. From his web page, clicking the link titled, "Becoming a Christian," the Catholic Answers (www.catholic.com) web page is loaded and an article is presented titled, "How To Become A Catholic." In his article which is critical of MacGregor Ministries, the individual says:
"Notice how your attention is drawn to John 3:1-7 and yet, before you realize it, your focus is shifted to a single, isolated verse, that of John 3:7? You are being subconsciously nudged to one verse and being told what you should think it means and all the while you are being told the opposite.

This is nothing more than literary sleight of hand or what is referred to as bait & switch."
Apparently the bait and switch from "Becoming a Christian" being defined as "How To Become A Catholic" is not considered to be just that. In other words, the attempt is to convince the reader that being Catholic is to be a Christian, which means that all of those pre-Catholic individuals in the early church have missed the boat. Be aware of the bias and also the fact that the Gospel message says nothing about becoming a Catholic in order to become a Christian.



#26
I feel very sorry for you that you have to go to such lengths and with such scrutiny to bash such a righteous man as this one. What have you done to lift up the Body of Christ. You shouldn't even be on the internet. God have mercy on you.
No location given
[203-Vol 5]


ON DOCTRINE NOTE:
Which righteous man?



#27
Would it be fair to surmise that you have aligned yourself with a single "educator" who claims (rightly or wrongly) to have the exact interpretation of scripture?

I have found your site highly entertaining and informative. I stumbled across your site recently when searching the web. I have been a Christian for almost 40 years. I actually attended Oral Roberts University 30 years ago, please forgive me. I don't fault you for exposing his faults.  However, there were a lot of good people there and many strong and faithful believers. I grew in my faith and learned a lot. I have been a member of or attended various denominational churches over the years including Baptist, Methodist and Presbyterian (USA and PCA). Additionally, I have traveled extensively as a musician to all various types of denominations and have encountered many different Christian doctrines, beliefs and practices. The fairest assessment I can come up with, after all I've seen and pondered, is that we see through a glass dimly but one day we will see Him face to face. I plan to be there.

I have also learned that the beauty of scripture is the fact that is is open to interpretation, thus, forcing me to walk by faith, and encouraging me to continuously study and search. I must admit that I have from time to time changed my opinion (or beliefs)on what a specific passage meant (or means) and with truthfulness I would have to say that I still do not know all there is to know of God's word. The more I read God's word and study, the more I find myself saying, "what was I thinking all these years." I have many times seen things in a new light based on the knowledge gained from study and prayer as well as life experience. 

I don't know if I can adhere to such a "literal" narrow view as you promote with your site but I defend your right to promote your views. I believe the Bible to be inspired but since man was involved in its construction, I can not trust that it, as a document (original texts), is inerrant. I do believe it to be infallible because it is inspired, and I believe it to be the Word of God to man, valuable for instruction and infallible in its message and truth. To me there is a huge difference between the words infallible and inerrant. If I were to adhere to a strict policy of the Bible being inerrant, and someday discover an inconsistency in its content, or uncover a mistake (on Paul's part), then it would in essence render the whole document rubbish and invalid because there could be no room for error. If just one error was found, none of the balance could legitimately be trusted. As a believer in God's total redemptive work through Jesus Christ my Saviour, and His infallibility, I am not willing to tread down that slippery slope, which to me is devoid of grace and predisposes one to depend on salvation by works.

I commend you for your statement of not "trusting in the teacher" and using the scriptures as the ONLY basis of authority, but to be lovingly honest, after reading the majority of your site, I am not so sure that is clearly your position. Most telling to me was your list of organizations and individuals where only one (1) man received a green mark as "correct doctrine." Additionally, this one person is published by the same companies that publish many of those you list as heretics. Thank God His grace is sufficient for all heretics, myself included. 

May God richly bless you in your quest for truth.

Tennessee, United States
[204-Vol 5]


ON DOCTRINE NOTE:
Welcome to On Doctrine.
Thank you for your visit and message on the Contact page.

No, I don't think you can make that assumption at all. If you go to the Writings page on the website,
Writings, you will find a large number of individuals who have articles posted who I would consider to have a reasonably accurate theology, but also express considerable latitude in many of their views, and they are only a small fraction of the individuals that could be listed. I would not agree with every single point that every one would make, but there is no one who gets every doctrine and nuance exactly right. What the issues come down to is where the authority for the various views originate. There are many individuals who I respect greatly who come to very different conclusions in relation to each other and in relation to me, because they have begun their opinion with a presupposition based on what they believe is in the Scripture but is not stated in the Scripture. Most disagreements occur when one or both parties step outside the boundaries of the Scripture itself. The Scripture presents a very narrow scope in relation to truth, and the gospel message is the most narrow message of all.

In relation to the one individual that I listed as being correct, you have assumed too much. Just because I have not at this point listed other individuals does not preclude the fact that there are other individuals too numerous for me to list that I would also place in that category. Does that mean that they all agree or that they all teach every doctrine and nuance 100% correctly? Absolutely not. John MacArthur, who is the person I listed, would be the first to admit to fallibility and has changed his position on issues in which it was shown that he was incorrect. However, in relation to those others that are listed, there is a very great difference.

Yes, there are areas where legitimate differences can and do exist, because the Scripture is either silent on the subject or does not state a clear definition. I don't have a problem with those differences, except when it is stated that one view or another is the only accurate or acceptable position, even though Scripture makes no statement to that effect. When the Scripture is silent or unclear on a particular issue, it is not proper to create doctrine by means of an assumption in relation to that issue. There is also the problem that many claim that the Scripture is open to interpretation or is broad in scope in areas where the Scripture itself denies that claim, such as the content of the gospel message.

I don't see any appreciable difference between infallibility and inerrancy in relation to the Scripture. Infallibility has as it antecedent fallibility, doubtfulness or unreliability, and inerrancy has as its antecedent error, mistake or falsity. You cannot consider the Bible to be authoritative if any of the negative definitions can be shown to apply, because those are issues of truthfulness, if it is not true in one instance then it cannot be assumed that it is true in any other instance, regardless of the subject, including the substance of the gospel message itself. You are already sliding on the slippery slope if you attempt to make allowances for the assumed possibility of errors being found. You are quite right to say that the whole document would be rendered to be rubbish, because that is just the case.

I am not familiar with the manner in which John MacArthur has chosen his publishers although I am aware that he has had conversations with some of them regarding the material and individuals that they do publish. It would be a question that you could pose to him at:
letters@gty.org



#28
In reference to the accusations that Bob Larson would be afraid if he met a real demon. You said, "It is very likely that Bob Larson has never encountered a real demon in his entire life. If he ever does, he will quickly find that all of his arrogant pontificating and silly tricks will have no effect, and, in fact, he will probably be scared stiff."

I assume you believe you are an expert in deliverance and have truly had the signs that follow believers follow you which the first being, "cast out demons". (Mark 16:16-20). It is bewildering when I reach the shameful attacks upon other ministries which only proves to the world that Christians devour their own and lack power. Who are those who are ashamed of the gifts and the signs that follow them that believe? Will God be ashamed of them when He comes?

I have studied about most all deliverance ministries to include Bob Larson and God is looking for those who will believe Him for deliverance and the demonstration of the Power of His Word. Doctrine without God's power is good for nothing. Have you ever faced a devil? I have and there is no fear when you know who you are in Christ. I have seen Bob face devils and there is no fear in Bob. Did you know that Bob was invited to the Vantican by the head exhorist of the Catholic Church? Bob's books are taught in many seminary schools. I am sure there is a lack of knowledge and that is why you dare to defy God's Word and judge His servant. I pray the fear of the Lord which is the beginning of wisdom will deliver you through repentance. God's mercies are new every morning. His servants who DO NOTHING may be hearing the same judgment that God said to the servant who hid his talents because he was afraid. Do you neglect the gifts that God has given you like "casting out demons" because you fear men instead of God? Just a thought you may want to consider. It seems approval ofthe "Christian doctrine experts" is your standard, instead of fear of God who clearly tells us to not bite and devour one another, nor judge your brother.

Sad so many are puffed up with knowledge, yet they have no demonstration of God's power following them. But it is never too late.

I am praying that God will soften your heart and the Fear of the Lord will begin so you can become Wise in the Lord. Wisdom is the Principal thing.

God Bless

Texas, United States
[205-Vol 5]


ON DOCTRINE NOTE:
SEE: the article BOB LARSON



#29
MacARTHUR the only one to make the right list. Speaks volumes about where youre at.

And what's with HALL OF SHAME? Open your eyes and your heart. Pray for these people not condemn them.

Our brothers and sisters in christ are never our enemies even if sometimes they act like it.

From what I read of your reviews, I would suggest if it is your desire to bring truth you should do a little rearch of the facts.

New York, United States
[220-Vol 5]


ON DOCTRINE NOTE:
The list is not comprehensive, so John MacArthur isn't the only person in the world who teaches correct doctrine.

I am not sure why you assume that prayers are not being given for those in the Hall of Shame who are still alive. However, while we all wait a lifetime for the others to comply with the biblical mandates regarding their conduct and false teachings, they can remain in the Hall of Shame for a brief few years, joining the many in the Hall of Shame listed in the Bible as well.

If I have made factual errors, which is possible, you are welcome to send the corrections along with the documentation and I will be happy to make the necessary changes.



#30A
Recipient: thomas vincent

CONTACT: Today's lesson began with a quotation from Paul's letter to the Thessalonians.

Let's see...... oh yes, the "Word of God" as expressed by the "inspired" Saul of Taursus. You remember him.  He was on his way to Damascus to arrest "Jewish Christians" when he was knocked off his horse by a - what was it? - oh yes, a lightning bolt or some such, became blinded, began hearing voices about "persecuting me" and spent the obligatory 30 days and 30 nights in the desert.  While there, he claims to have real conversations with the risen Christ, returns to Rome to announce to Peter and James that Jesus himself told him that the kingdom of heaven was now open to all, the dreaded Gentiles included (which came as a relief to all Chinese) thus contradicting the words of Jesus himself while he performed his "ministry on earth (or so we are told). In any event, Saul Paul began gaining new converts since adult males could now avoid the dreaded circumscion and began writing letters to his "churches" since they could never get straight what Saul Paul was saying in the first place. Along the way, his "ins [portion lost during transmission]

Yessiree, when I see the "Word of God" expressed by "St. Paul" I, for one, certainly take notice.  Keep up the good work!

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Pennsylvania, United States
[235-Vol 5]


ON DOCTRINE NOTE:
Welcome to On Doctrine.
Thank you for your visit and message on the Contact page.

Thomas Vincent died in 1678 and the age of 44. He wrote the posted article in 1670 at the age of 36.
He is certainly unable to peruse your comments.

I don't know where you came up with the circumcision excuse regarding the followers of Paul. Since the majority of Jewish males were circumcised on the eighth day after birth, they did not even know the event was in their future and had no anticipation of the "dreaded" event. Circumcision was never a part of the early church and was an issue rejected by the apostles themselves at the Council at Jerusalem, Acts 15:1-29.

When St. Peter approves of the doctrines taught by Paul and also accepts spiritual rebuke from him, then it is time to take notice, unless of course the whole Christian issue doesn't mean anything to you.


#30B
Thanks for the reply. Pete & Jimmy (affectionately known as "saint" Peter and "saint" James for some reason) insisted that one had to be a Jew to be a Christian (as Jesus certainly taught). That meant that the "pagans" needed to undergo the Jewish right of circumcision to be a follower of Christ. But - you are right - the views of Paul prevailed and - voila! - circumcision was no longer required; The "gentiles/pagans" could at last achieve "salvation" without bodily mutilation, which must have been a major disappointment to Jehaovah who required circumcision as a sealing sign of the "covenant." Oh well, times change. Paul's writings reflect the views of the culture of the time, especially regarding women and "homosexuals' (God forbid!). Why anyone would believe these letters to be "inerrant" and "inspired of the Holy Spirit" is beyond me. In fact, recent Biblical scholarship has concluded that at least three (if not five) of Paul's "inspired" letters are forgeries. Anyway, great hearing from you and look forward to your next insightful commentary on "Why I Know What The God of the Universe Thinks."

Sorry to hear about Tom Vince. The good news is that there is no hell for him to go to.

Pennsylvania, United States
[273-Vol 6]


ON DOCTRINE NOTE:
You have presented a mother lode of misinformation that is simply incredible. Where in the Scriptural record did Jesus Christ state that a person must first be a Jew to be a Christian? The Christian message was not preached until after the death of Jesus Christ, so he could have not made any such statement. In point of fact, Jesus Christ made the offer of salvation to those who were not Jews, as seen in the incident at the well with the Samaritan woman who was not considered to be a Jew.

"Therefore the Samaritan woman said to Him. 'How is it that You, being a Jew, ask me for a drink since I am a Samaritan woman?' (For Jews have no dealings with Samaritans.) Jesus answered and said to her, 'If you knew the gift of God, and who it is who says to you, ""Give Me a drink,"" you would have asked Him, and He would have given you living water,"'" John 4:9-10.

Where in the Scriptural record do Peter and James state that a person must first become a Jew in order to become a Christian? If you wish to make a claim, then you need to provide a foundation from the Scripture, which does not exist in relation to your statement.

Circumcision was a requirement as part of the Old Covenant, but was never a part of the New Covenant, never taught by Jesus Christ as a part of the atonement and was not accepted by the apostles as evidenced by the decision made at the Council of Jerusalem in which Peter and James affirmed the pronouncement that circumcision was not to be a requirement, Act 15. It is not recorded that the apostle Paul was an author of the pronouncement.

Your statement that it has been established that three, if not all, of Paul's letters are forgeries is also without foundation.



#31
In writing on John Wimber, you state: "In that case, Scripture cannot be used to judge new revelations, because they go beyond and transcend that which has already been revealed." I am curious if you can locate any quote from him that supports this. The Vineyard movement, so far as I know has always been very clear that scripture is the unchanging standard and must always be authoritative over prophesy. All prophesy must be tested against scripture and if the two are in conflict, the prophesy must be considered false. Certainly there are legitimate points on which to criticize Wimber, but I fear you may be criticizing him here for something he spoke earnestly against. Thanks!
United States
[245-Vol 5]


ON DOCTRINE NOTE:
Welcome to On Doctrine.
I did not state that John Wimber made that particular statement. I was simply indicating that a belief in continuing revelation will lead to that logical conclusion.



#32
I came across your page recently. I went through many of your articles re: individuals and organizations. They are well researched and succinctly represented.
I thought it was interesting that there was only one person with "correct doctrine", John Macarthur. That's rather interesting if not troubling that you have represented yourselves this way.
I spent a number of years as a commuter and had the opportunity to listen to John on the way. However I stopped. I found very few things that troubled me about his doctrinal positions although I disagreed with some. What troubled me most was the arrogance in which he presented his position as the only possible way. He never seemed to exhibit any humility whatsoever regarding controversies of doctrine.
I expect that the On Doctrine sight is his or certainly from his disciples because the same arrogance is readily displayed on these pages. I would encourage you to rethink how you present yourselves and your beliefs. I wouldn't be so presumptuous to ask you to change them but merely present yourself with some level of humility.
I would also suggest thinking about something else which I find helpful. Throughout church history there have been great men of God who have unequivocally displayed a depth of personal relationship with God and exceptional intellect, (probably even beyond John in either category) who have opposite positions on theology. We shouldn't shy away from attempting to understand what is important to God but we should also be careful in presuming we have the real answers.

Canada
[253-Vol 6]


ON DOCTRINE NOTE:
You have made the same presumption like many other people who