ON DOCTRINE MAIL RECEIVED, The Bad News

ON DOCTRINE INFORMATION

The BAD NEWS
Messages Sent To On Doctrine
2005

All Messages Reproduced As Received Without Correction Or Alteration
Names and e-mail addresses removed in accord with the On Doctrine Privacy Policy

All responses labeled ON DOCTRINE NOTE are by Gary A. Hand unless stated differently

#1
what rubbish you write, you have no idea what this group of true believers believe.i am not one myself..but everything is doctrinal.and your antichrist beliefs should no be published.. what you say they believe is totally nonsense.. you have no idea what they actually believe or their history.
fool
No name given or location given

ON DOCTRINE NOTE:
What group?

#2
In response to Mr. Handss article, being no follower of Carlton pearson, I vehemently declare that Mr. Hand's stance on Mr. Pearson's stance and theological interpretations epitomize the elitism and exclusion practiced by "Christians" in our area. No one, including Mr. Hand nor Mr. Pearson are privy to the true nature of God; therefore, Mr. hand has no more authority, spiritually speaking, to declare Mr. Pearson's theological perceptions as false or self-serving.
United States

ON DOCTRINE NOTE:
The name of the website is On Doctrine, and it is the biblical standard of measure that is used and not that which I have created myself. Apparently you do not accept any standard in relation to theological issues, much less that found in the Scripture, so your judgments are based on your own personal elitism by which you declare that there is no authoritative answer to any theological issue. I will at least give credit to Carlton Pearson for attempting to support his arguments from the Scripture, which we both agree is authoritative and does reveal the nature of God as far as He has chosen to reveal Himself.

If you wish to support your position from within the framework of the Scripture, which is the foundation of the argument, then I will be happy to discuss the issues, otherwise you are expressing an opinion outside the authority with which Carlton Pearson and I have a disagreement and outside the parameters with which On Doctrine is concerned.
See: The Gospel of Inclusion and Carlton Pearson

#3
People of God who have won millions of souls over through preaching the word of jesus, and your site downplays thier authenticity.

Imagine if someone received Christ because of a certain minister? You who do not do anything and have not won as many souls over to the Lord critise and destroy the faith on new born again believers.

Repent from your ways.
No location given

#4
Dears Sirs just so you know Oral Roberts does not say he has healed anyone and he always gives GOD the flory ... you should get your facts right and he and his son never do anything that is not Bible based!!!!!!! you should realize how uniformed you are ! before you go bashing peple !
United States

ON DOCTRINE NOTE:
See: Oral Roberts
See: Richard Roberts

#5
It is with great pain that I red your information on Rick Godwin and John Wimber Both of which had a godly ompact on my life. I dont understand what motivates you to publish these views on other people on the net. may God forgive you for that.

In His Love
South Africa

ON DOCTRINE NOTE:
I quite understand your concerns, because I understand the direction from which you approach your teachers, Rick Godwin and John Wimber. However, my motivation is not a personal attack against persons that I do not particularly like, but a comparison of what individuals teach in relation to the Scripture. That is why the website is called On Doctrine. The question is posed throughout the website, Who is the authority, the teacher or the Scripture?

In relation to Rick Godwin, you should be concerned that he associates in ministry with Benny Hinn, and accepts him as a true anointed minister of God, when, in fact, Benny Hinn is a documented false prophet and is declared to be so in Deuteronomy 18:20-22.
I have noted several false prophecies by Benny Hinn at:
Benny Hinn prophecies

I have dealt with some issues regarding Rick Godwin and Benny Hinn at: Benny Hinn and Rick Godwin
I have dealt with some issues regarding John Wimber's support of the Toronto Blessing phenomenon at:
John Wimber and the Toronto Blessing

See: Benny Hinn
See: John Wimber
See: Toronto Blessing

#6
You are very deceived individual. You need to stop what you are saying about various ministers.

Just because you haven't experienced something with God doesn't make it false.

God can do anything he wants to do. And far as I can tell you are making yourself a judge over these ministers and misleading alot of people.
United States

ON DOCTRINE NOTE:
It would be a mistake to assume that I deal with the issues represented on the website based on my particular "experience". Whether I have had or not had a particular experience is not the criteria by which truth is validated. The same should be found in your life. Just because you have had an experience does not mean that it is from God. Experience is not the criteria by which truth is validated.

The Scripture is the standard by which all experience and all doctrine is to be evaluated.

You provided no examples in regards to your disagreement with what you found on the website. If you found specific items with which you disagreed, you are welcome to send them to me along with the biblical defense of your position, and I will be happy to discuss those issues with you.

See: On Doctrine - FAQ #13 - Why Do I Criticize God's Anointed?
See: Are Experiences A Valid Source Of Truth?

#7
Yes [there are other ways to be saved]. Who is to know what religious belief is correct. Let's not forget that the people that wrote the Bible are also the people that thought the world was flat.
Australia

ON DOCTRINE NOTE:
The people who wrote the Bible believed what? What Bible have you been reading, or should I say, not reading? It is time to take another look at the ancients who are considered to be so ignorant.

He stretches out the north over empty space and hangs the earth on nothing.
He has inscribed a circle on the surface of the waters at the boundary of light and darkness.
Job 26:7, 10 (NAS)

When He established the heavens, I was there, when He inscribed a circle on the face of the deep . . .
Proverbs 8:27 (NAS)

It is He who sits above the circle of the earth, and its inhabitants are like grasshoppers, Who stretches out the heavens like a curtain and spreads them out like a tent to dwell in.
Isaiah 40:22 (NAS)

#8
who made you an authority on doctrine baal?
United States

#9
Recipient: Master Lier

you guys are so full of it its not even funny! i have forwarded your site to the LDS church lawyers! now we'll see whose having fun now! you should know better than to put false fabricated material online like this. heres hoping your site crashes real soon!
United States

ON DOCTRINE NOTE:
I always reply that when you find something with which you disagree on the website and the documentation is presented to support what has been said, then you must do your own research regarding the issue presented, and present the truth of the matter. If you find the documentation to be false or fabricated, then let me know, and I will be happy to discuss the difficulty.

I have noted the following on the About page: "In the event that I misstate the facts or assume that which is untrue, I am willing to be corrected by a genuine presentation of the facts and will admit to the errors that I make."

Since you did not state as to what items I am said to have lied, then, until you do so, I cannot specifically answer your charges.

#10
You have missed the whole point of Coplands message about using the word in our speech. We are only using the words that proclaim what God has already established for us. Look up the root meaning of "ask" and it actually means to demand. That goes directly against your religion.
No name or location given

ON DOCTRINE NOTE:
This issue has already been answered on the On Doctrine website:
See:Kenneth Copeland - What Did He Say?

#11
I'm replying to your ridicilous babblings about Oral Roberts, you say He claims to heal..which says it all..u dont listen, Oral roberts always says it is GOD who healed not him and God does work through his people, He tells us to go lay hands on the sick to get them healed, but its not our hands that heal them, but the power of God flowing through our hands that does..and if you have followed up on Oral Roberts now you see He is in great health, He stepped out on faith, wrote a check for everything he had in his bank account and got healed.
Dude attacks happen, but christians are supposed to be able to fight back and defeat satan-sickness not let it stay..as for Oral Roberts grandchild, who knows why the child died, but there are many reasons that could of been why, who knows what the parents were doing, if they were secretly in disobediance to God which was stoping them from recieving from God, who knows but Kennth Hagin said sometimes when hed pray for someone, He could literally feel a hand push his hand off the person He was praying for and it was God, because the person God knew would turn away once he got healed and end up in hell forever, so as the bible says, if you dont obey, God will -allow- you to be turned over to satan for the destruction of the -flesh- in order to save the soul..meaning many people get right with God when their ill, but leave once they r better, so in some of the cases Kenneth Hagin experienced where God didn;t want Him to pray for their healing, its because God said, He has given them many chances, but to let him die saved..instead of healing him, just to see him end up in hell forever once he turns away...
anyways the whole giving process in order to recieve is of the bible, the process of sowing and reaping i know of people who couldnt even get healed, out of debt, untel they tithed, even me i got blessed once i tithed.. God says in Malachi, if u dont tithe, give 10% of what u earn a week to God, that you are robbing God and are cursed, but if u do give, God will pour u out a blessing so big u cant contain it all, if of course u believe...Like with Benny hinn, people think hes a fraud because those claimed to be healed, later were sick again..and thats not Benny hinns fault, its theirs.
satan is going to try to attack you, but ur supposed to believe and Not doubt, but to believe and obey in order to recieve from God..if they got healed and then went home, started sinning, refused to tithe to God, whatever sin, didnt get in the word..then of course the sickness would come back on you because ur not strong in God to be able to resist it...so they did get healed, but just as one can get healed by using faith and obeying, so u can get ill by doubting and being in sin.
Oral Roberts, Benny hinn, the faith preachers are not a fraud, but only to those who don't do as God says to experience what the preachers talk about, who don't understand the bible.
No name or location given

ON DOCTRINE NOTE:
These issues have already been answered on the On Doctrine website.
See:Oral Roberts - His Prophecies
Addendum:
(1) Oral Roberts has worn glasses for many years, so, I must presume that God does not heal that affliction.
(2) On TBN television, October 6, 1992, Paul Crouch "healed" Oral Roberts of his heart pains, yet, only four hours later Oral Roberts was admitted to Hoag Medical Center, Newport Beach, California, after suffering severe chest pains and a major heart attack.
(3) As a result of his heart attack, Oral Roberts wears a pacemaker.
(4) I am not sure where you heard the story about Oral Roberts writing a personal check for everything he had in the bank, which could have been fifty cents or a million dollars, but if that were true, he paid for something that he did not receive, and you are deceived for believing that he was healed of his heart disease. You cannot buy healing, and you cannot find teaching in the Bible that says you can. You need to live in the real world regarding Oral Roberts, because what you believe and say about his "healing" is in the world of fantasy.
(5) The tithe in the Old Testament was 25-30%, not 10%. So, if you have only been giving 10%, then you owe God some serious back payments. (See the trouble you are in when you are a legalist?)
(6) Where, in the Bible, is there any teaching about losing your healing?
(7) Kenneth Hagin said a lot of things, but saying it doesn't make it real or true. Kenneth Hagin claimed that he had been healed in his younger years of heart disease, and he died last year of -- no, say it isn't so -- a heart attack. I guess he lost that healing?
(8) What does God say about Benny Hinn's false prophecies? (Deuteronomy 18:20-22)
(9) What does God say about Oral Roberts' false prophecies? (Deuteronomy 18:20-22)

#12
SOUNDS TO ME LIKE YOU'RE IN THE BUSINESS OF SELLING BOOKS FOR JOHN MCCARTHY AND YOU PROBABLY ARE JOHN MCCARTHY. JUDGE YE NOT LEST YE BE JUDGED.
No name or location given

ON DOCTRINE NOTE:
At least get the man's name right. It is MacArthur, not McCarthy.
I am not John MacArthur, as you would plainly see if you had taken the time to visit the ABOUT page on the website. You would also see that On Doctrine does not solicit or accept donations, and is not funded by any individual or organization. On Doctrine does not receive any type of remuneration in relation to persons who might purchase materials from another website by using a link from the On Doctrine website. I do not even know how many people use the link from a resource noted on the website. On Doctrine does not and has not received one cent of income in the three years that the website has been operational.

Before you attempt to judge me, you should get the facts straight and then heed your own advice, because you will be judged in the manner that you judge, according to Matthew 7:2, which is the proper use of the verse that you have improperly quoted.
See: "Why Do I Criticize God's Anointed?"

#13
Your slandering of other churches with undocumented and false arguments is decidely anti-christ. Your work is an enemy to light and truth. God will not lightly judge those who intentionally and for financial gain lead others from light and truth.
No location given

ON DOCTRINE NOTE:
Financial gain? See #12 above.
See: "Why Do I Criticize God's Anointed?"

#14
may a curse be visited on all those who use Gods name to obtain wealth amen
No name or location given

#15
As a Pastor and a deliverance minister, I associated myself with Bob larson Ministy. Bob Larson IS very doctrinally sound. THere is nothing in his teachings that reveal false doctrine. I have encountered many demons some during ministry and some with Bob larson. THe statement that Bob has never encountered a real demon is false and an out right lie. I have witnessed Bob deal with demons in person. Some I have ministered with alongside of Bob. He does know his stuff. To attack the man and state that he has never encountered a real demon or to brand him a teacher of false doctrine without proof or evidence is a cheap shot and unchristian.
United States

ON DOCTRINE NOTE:
See: Bob Larson

#16
I would just like to comment that when defending our faith and the Bible's truth claims, we are commanded to do so 'with gentleness and respect, having a good conscience.' Some of you have responded to dissenting opinions in a cold, academic manner, with absolutel no touch of gentleness. if you can't respond with gentleness, perhaps you should not respond at all. Is God the God of argumentation, or he He the God of love?"
United States

ON DOCTRINE NOTE:
A person just cannot win when faced with this type of criticism. If I am "cold and academic" then I am not gentle. If I am rash and confrontive, then I am unloving and not gentle. But what the person is actually stating, is that my attitude, as defined by them, negates the issues that are presented, so they do not have to consider the elements presented. That is the sadness of the reply.

#17
I wonder why anyone would use so much time to gather all of the gibberish information to post against TBN network. I am a life that was changed through teir ministry and I value TBN above all other television networks combined, so your effort to malign failed in this instance. Your web site tells MORE ABOUT YOU THAN IT DOES PAUL & JAN CROUCH, BENNY HIN AND ALL THE PEOPLE YOU ARE SEEKING TO EXPOSE.. SHAME ON YOU.
We don't judge by error, but by the Spirit. As far as I am concerned a $5 million dollar home in California is not that much. There are hundreds of them where I live and even a little shack is often mor than $1 million. Perhaps, if you make Peace with your Maker, he will bless you with a home you will feel you deserve!
sincerely
mar.
P.S. After all this nonsense, TBN just had a telethon that was the most successful in thier history by a Big number , I understand, and I have to tell you, You haven't seen anything yet, since TBN is growing rapidly now. I imagine if you really knew how much money is put in the Network, you would be very upset.
United States

ON DOCTRINE NOTE:
One of your comments explains why On Doctrine presents the information that it does and also why the information is of no consequence to you: "We dont judge by error, but by the Spirit."
Truth or error does not matter to you, only your emotional response to a contrived situation that makes you feel good. So, you have nothing to base your faith upon except your feelings, which are subject to change, depending on your circumstances.
I have a very good idea of how much money comes in to TBN in a year. I also know, that prior to one of TBN's Praise-A-Thon's last year, in which they were continually begging for money to operate the network, that TBN had $230 million dollars in U.S. Treasury bonds, and $30 milion in cash reserves. TBN also had $280 million invested in short and long-term investments. Let's see, $230 million + $30 million + $280 million = $540 million. Now, you should be upset about that.

See the articles:
Paul Crouch & TBN
Paul Crouch and Giving and Receiving

#18
YOU SURE HAVE A LOT OF HATE. GOD MUST BE SO RELIEVED THAT HE HAS YOU TO DO HIS JUDGING FOR HIM.
No name or location given

#19
You are the false Prophet. All your statements about Oral Roberts' statements are false. I am witness to his statements and you have twisted and modified his words. I have his tapes to prove it. Also I hvae received a major physical Healing from his encourgement to receive from God. Why do you want to take Gods' Blessings from thousands of Christians and non-Christians as well as all the students ( including my daughter ). May God have Mercy on your soul. I pray you repent puplicly before it is to late.
United States

ON DOCTRINE NOTE:
You might wish to consider me to be a false teacher, however, since I have never claimed to have received or given a prophecy, you may not consider me to be a false prophet.
See the article: Oral Roberts

#20
tHIS WEBSITE IS SO WRONG IN IT'S DOCTRINE THAT I CAN'T HARDLY BELIEVE IT.
United States

ON DOCTRINE NOTE:
A few examples of the wrong doctrine and your biblical foundation as a rebuttal would have been appropriate. Otherwise, your comment has no substance. I am always willing to discuss the claims that I have made an error.

#21
Hi! It is my prayer that the holy spirit will draw you to the saving knowledge of Jesus Christ...with the realization that Jesus alone heals and not man. The Christian leaders you mention in your article about Oral Roberts DO NOT claim to have the ability to heal. They only pray for others and God performs the miracle. If they made the decision to heal others, the world would not be as it is. God alone is omnipotent and omnipresent. Thank You for your time ...
United States

#22
My message is simply this ... Do you actually think people are going to sit here and read your long, tawdry, insufferably boring nonsense? I almost fell from my chair dozing off! Here let me sum it up for your real quick from scripture, ok? And don't forget ... scripture is final and cannot be argued with ...

Furthermore, we will SAY to this mountain, Mark 11:23-24 .. "And He will have whatever he SAYS."

Furthermore, Proverbs 18:21 states the power of life and death is in our tongue and WE WILL EAT THE FRUIT OF WHATEVER WE SAY.

Hey, don't you know anything? Even heathen doctors know more than you! They know very well that speaking evil words over our children can put them on death row or ruin their lives forever. It is already common knowledge that with our words that we can kill or resurrect, nurture or harm. So if even the heathen know this already, why are you so far behind? Hysterical!

I suggest you review again these scriptures and submit to them as the final authority of God. Unless, of course you dare to call God a liar ...
United States

ON DOCTRINE NOTE:
Encyclopedias and text books are not the most exciting reading material, and the books and prescription instructions read by your doctor in order to save your life would bore you to tears, but it is the message that is important. Apparently you managed to read long enough to encounter a disagreement with your theology.

It is interesting that you misquote Matthew 8:5-13. Nothing is said by Jesus that the "Greatest faith is the spoken word." What He said was, "Truly I say to you, I have not found such great faith with anyone in Israel," or "... not even in Israel," vs. 10. Jesus then said, "Go; it shall be done for you as you have believed," vs. 13. He did not say, 'Go, it shall be done for you as you have spoken.'

In relation to Mark 11:23-24, the passage is prefaced by verse 22, "And Jesus answered saying to them, 'Have faith in God.'" Faith is to be directed toward God, not your own 'faith-filled words'. In relation to verses 23-24, which were spoken to the disciples, no one has ever spoken to a mountain and it has been moved, including the apostles. If that was being done by even an infinitesimal fraction of the Christian population, what a mess that would be. The first question to be asked is, Do you have faith in God or in your own words which you speak to bring about the desires of your heart? The second question to be asked is, What is the status of your faith in relation to your assumed ability to bring to pass those things that you desire? In other words, are you assuming, like the disciples in Matthew 17:14-20, that you have faith the size of a mustard seed or greater, that you actually do not? The disciples thought that they were equipped and ready to perform miracles, but found that they were not, because of the smallness of their faith. Jesus said, in verse 20, that nothing would be impossible for them if they had faith as small as a mustard seed, but even in their apostleship, there were many things that were impossible for them, so, we must also face reality, that there are many things that are impossible for us, due to our lack of faith.

Even in the most basic and simple issues of life, faith to accomplish the task is lacking, as the disciples found when Jesus gave the standard of forgiveness to His disciples in Luke 17:3-5. Their faith was lacking in relation to what Jesus taught, and their reaction was to say, "Increase our faith!" vs. 5. Their lack of faith in relation to what was required, is contrasted again in vs. 6, "And the Lord said, 'If you had faith like a mustard seed, you would say to this mulberry tree, 'Be uprooted and be planted in the sea'; and it would obey you."

But all of that is changed in today's Christian world, because today's teachers know much more than the apostles, since they teach that faith can be bought by giving money to a ministry, by which it is attached to the spoken word, so anything that is desired can be obtained. What a brilliant stroke of genius that is. Not only can the giver obtain faith, receive a 100-fold return on their money and the ability to command God to fulfill their deepest desires, the leader of the ministry can obtain free operating money without having to exercise any faith, and in case the giver does not receive the 100-fold return or the desires of their heart, he can tell the person to take their problem to God. Now that is a great deal. Unfortunately for the apostles, they never heard of that concept.

Proverbs 18:21 has nothing to do with food. If you are trying to use that verse to support the idea that you can speak your desires, and the 'fruit' of those words will be the accomplishment or receiving of those desires, i.e. health, wealth, happiness, etc., then you have adopted a wrong view of that particular passage. Solomon was not teaching current Word of Faith doctrine, regardless of what you may have been taught or wish to believe. The verse is explained in the previous verses in the chapter and elsewhere in Proverbs, and you must deal with those explanations:

"Then they will call on me, but I will not answer; they will seek me diligently but they will not find me, because they hated knowledge and did not choose the fear of the Lord. They would not accept my counsel, they spurned all my reproof. So they shall eat of the fruit of their own way, and be satiated with their own devices," Proverbs 1:28-31.

"An evil man is snared by the transgression of his lips, but the righteous will escape from trouble. A man will be satisfied with good by the fruit of his words, and the deeds of a man's hands will return to him." "He who speaks truth tells what is right, but a false witness, deceit. There is one who speaks rashly like the thrusts of a sword, but the tongue of the wise brings healings. Truthful lips will be established forever, but a lying tongue is only for a moment," Proverbs 12:13-14, 17-19.

"From the fruit of a man's mouth he enjoys good, but the desire of the treacherous is violence. The one who guards his mouth preserves his life; the one who opens wide his lips comes to ruin," Proverbs 13:2-3.

If your words will bring satisfaction to your stomach, then simply speak the description of the food you want at your next meal and see if it will magically appear.

If you wish to base your doctrinal foundation on heathen philosophy and social mores, in which everyone is guilty except the offender, then be my guest. But I will stay with the Scripture, properly stated and applied.

#23
Wrong again my boring, tawdry friend.

Your ignorance of scripture is becoming an embarrassment to me and everyone at this office. The centurion said ... "Speak the word only and my servant will be healed" ... This was the statement that Jesus called the GREATEST FAITH He ever saw ... the ability to speak the word with ease and without anxiety ... the same way that GOD HIMSELF send forth His word.

Are you sure you don't want to repent ? I can see that you are fighting for your life here. But every word you type is more ridiculous and embarrassing than the one prior.

And it has not gone unnoticed by you and your colleagues that the Lord always shows up at "Benny Hinn Crusades" with miracles and healings but He never shows up when YOU pray. And isn't it also true that your financial problems are insurmountable right now, and more than you can bare? And isn't it also true that there is sickness, death and disease in your household?

So I will ask you again ... are you sure you don't want to repent from this nonsense? The Lord is obviously against you because your prayers are NOT being heard.

I am a licensed, ordained minister and will hear your confidential confession whenever you are ready.
United States

ON DOCTRINE NOTE:
You are hoping to find a defect in my circumstance so that you can ignore the issues that have been raised, however, those issues will not go away and eventually you must face them all. It is unfortunate that you consider yourself to be a prophet, because you have embarrassed yourself by presuming knowledge of my life and circumstances about which you know nothing. You are the one who has gotten your predictions all wrong. I have had zero financial debt since 1973 and no particular physical problems that require miracles to resolve and, no, there is not any sickness, death and disease in my household.

Your authority, Benny Hinn, has claimed and prophesied that Jesus Christ will appear on the platform with him, which has never happened and is a claim that is in direct contradiction to the Scripture:

Jesus Christ stated in His prophecy to Jerusalem: "For I say to you, from now on you will not see Me until you say, 'Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord!'" Matthew 23:39.

Jesus Christ stated in His prophecy to the disciples:
"Then if anyone says to you, 'Behold, here is the Christ,' or 'There He is,' do not believe him. For false Christs and false prophets will arise and will show great signs and wonders, so as to mislead, if possible, even the elect. Behold, I have told you in advance," Matthew 24:23-25.

Jesus Christ also stated another prophecy to His disciples:
"And He said to the disciples. 'The days will come when you will long to see one of the days of the Son of Man, and you will not see it. They will say to you, 'Look there! Look here!' Do not go away, and do not run after them. For just like the lightning, when it flashes out of one part of the sky, shines to the other part of the sky, so will the Son of Man be in His day," Luke 17:22-24.

Benny Hinn' s claim to an appearance by Jesus Christ, standing on a platform with him, does not have any comparison with how Jesus Christ states that He will return. Benny Hinn's "prophecy" has no biblical foundation and is false.

Deuteronomy 18:20-22 is quite clear regarding what God states about an individual who gives a false prophesy. Either Benny Hinn is the authority or the Scripture is the authority. You have made your choice to support a false prophet.

If you have read the article on Benny Hinn on the On Doctrine website, then you have seen, listed there, 4 false prophecies that he has given. In case you did not see them, they can be found at: www.ondoctrine.com/10hinn.htm#prophecies

#24
Hi, I have read some of your summaries, and while reading the one on jesse duplantis I began to see you people as the most cenacle legalistic folks I hve ever read. Wow, you guys are phenomenal.....................
United States

#25
God Bless,
I have been reading the information presented on your website with great interest. I have a question that I really hope that you can answer. On your site your provide the names and authobiographies and proof of false prophets and healers. Could you please provide some information on true prophets and true healers. This would be greatly appreciated. I ask this because if the case happens to be that you don't believe in modern day prophets or miracles or healers, then you are operating from a presupposition that would disqualify you from giving an objective opinion of these individuals.Looking forward to hearing from you.
United States

ON DOCTRINE NOTE:
It is not my presupposition that is the criteria which determines the validity of prophets and their teachings. The Scripture itelf is the authority on the matter, Deuteronomy 13:1-4; 18:20-22.

#26
SHAME ON YOU1 Do God's Profits no harm!
United States

ON DOCTRINE NOTE:
I have dealt with the issue of 1 Chronicles 16:22 on the On Doctrine FAQS page at: Why Do You Criticize God's Anointed?

#27
concerning GTA, Gary A. Hand On Doctrine. Yes GT was an idiot in his last days but at least he always stated, Don't believe me, believe your Bible, ie not some self important so-called reverend mans interpretations taken out of context. ( like lesbian bishops, faggot ministers, priests, nuns, and bishops, last confession saves all, just make sure you repent on your deathbed before it its too late, so-called christians.)

Please collect the $10K reward if you can show anywhere in the new testament that 1. man has a soul rather than man is a soul (nephesh) in the greek and hebrew or arameic language, 2. that there are 3 persons in GOD, 3. that Jesus Christ, who is "Lord of the Sabbath", who "went to the synogue on the Sabbath as His custom was", Ever told the apostles "hey you guys, You got it All Wrong, We go to chuch on Sunday."

Of course if you perfer the fairy tales and ghost stories of the ancient pagans which the Catholic Church adopted, then go ahead and have fun!!
No name or location given

ON DOCTRINE NOTE:
What a paragon of honesty GTA was. He was never anything but an immoral womanizer from his youngest days, not just his last days. Give him the full credit that he was due regarding his conduct.

The Catholic church has been responsible for many false doctrines since its inception, but they did not originate the concept of the soul, Trinitarian doctrine or Sunday worship.

Jesus worshipped on the Sabbath, because He was born under the Law and lived under the Law in order to fulfill perfectly the requirements of the Law, which was not abolished until His death.

#28
It is sad to see the hall of shame. Shouldn't we pray to the LORD so He can bring bout the changes needed to usher in His Glory through their errors, instead. A call to the other brethrens to join in prayer to bring about change instead of publishing the information in the hall of shame."
Indonesia

ON DOCTRINE NOTE:
Of course we should all pray for those individuals, however, the conduct represented by the examples noted in the Hall of Shame disqualifies those individuals from any further ministry by specific teaching in the Scripture. The primary responsibility of Christian followers and those in responsible positions, is to remove the offending parties from their position of leadership and apply the principles of discipline found in Matthew 18:15-20. That is what Christians are unwilling to do and that is a direct violation of the Scriptural mandate. Christians are all too often unwilling to face the gross sins of their leaders in direct violation of the Scripture and all too willing to defend those leaders in the face of a watching world, who cannot understand why Christians do not clean their own house before condemning an unbelieving world. Prayer is very good, unless the prayers go amiss when prayers are said contrary to what is already revealed in the Scripture as the proper course of action to take.
See: 1 Timothy 3:1-13 and Titus 1:5-16.

#29
You are a messager of the devil because the devil is the accuser of the brethren. you do not only see the negative part on the servants of God. What have you done that can leave your legacy!!!! I bet you will go to the grave and no one will ever remember you!!
No name or location given

#30
This article disproves itself in the end. Was that the intent? If not, well read again. It couldn't have been true as evident in this article. Remember, Satan deceives all people.
No name or location given

ON DOCTRINE NOTE:
If you had noted which article is in question and the reasons why, then your reply might make sense. As it stands, I don't have a clue as to what you are talking about.

#31
Since we're talking "Truth" here, where's YOUR name and list of sins on that "Hall of Fame" list? Being that your soooo in to truth. I'd think the first thing you'd do is include your "OWN" sins and shortcomings in your "Hall of Fame" list. Your no different than any other man, woman or child on theis earth. WE ALL HAVE FALLEN SHORT!!!!
No location given

ON DOCTRINE NOTE:
The Hall of Shame is a representative sample list of individuals who are considered to be pastors, elders, deacons, teachers or aspire to be leaders in their field of endeavor in relation to Christian ministry or organizations. Their conduct comes under the authority of the Scripture, which determines whether they are qualified to hold the positions to which they aspire. The qualifications for ministry are found in 1 Timothy 3:1-13 and Titus 1:5-16. Before deciding that any or all of the individuals listed are exempt from scrutiny or criticism, those passages should be read.

The issue is not in relation to salvation or whether those particular individuals have been forgiven by God for their sins, which is an issue between them and God, about which I have no comment. The issue is in relation to the qualifications for leadership as mandated by the Scripture. Either the Scripture is authoritative on the issues that it presents or it is not. If it is presumed that the Scripture is authoritative, then the conduct represented by the individuals listed disqualifies them from the ministry of leadership. If the Scripture is not authoritative on the issue, then it is not authoritative on any issue, including salvation and is worthless as a spiritual guide.

I suggest a review of the 9 section study guide, The Call To Lead The Church: Elders and Qualified Servants For The Church: Deacons, for an in-depth study of the importance of leadership being men of character and integrity. All sections of the study guide are linked to each other and can be found here:
www.ondoctrine.com/2mac0160.htm

There are many resources on the On Doctrine website, so please come back again for a visit.

#32
If this list were truly accurate, EVERYONE would be on it. We are all born sinners, and it is not our place to judge the heart, leave that to God. He who is without sin cast the first stone. This list is shameful, are we not to forgive and foget? Sad.
No name or location given

ON DOCTRINE NOTE:
Your dealing with the wrong issue. See the On Doctrine Note to #31 above.

#33
stop critisize and the work of GOD SEE YOUR LIFE AND TELL US THE REAL THING YOU DO FOR THE KINGDOM OF GOD.CONSIDERE YOUR WAY AND YOU WILL SEE CERTAINLY THAT YOU ARE IN MISTAKE .DON'T WASTE YOUR CRITISIZE SOMEBADY DO YOUR WORK FOR THE LORD IF YOUR REALY CHRISTIAN
France

ON DOCTRINE NOTE:
There was quite a large amount of consideration that went into the On Doctrine website before it went on-line and there was even more consideration in regards to the articles that are posted. I would hope that you would deal with the issues raised in the articles. Either the issues raised on the website are valid or they are not. If they are not valid, then present your case and I will consider what you have to say. If the issues are valid, then your criticism of me has no foundation.

If you do not deal with the issues, because you consider me to be critical, unloving or unkind, then you have attempted to avoid those issues by finding a fault with me. That is your loss, because you will never know the truth of a matter if you ignore the claims being made.

#34
if you think that GOD SENT YOU IN THIS WORLD IN ORDER TO CRITISIZE ,DO YOUR WORK!!!
France

#35
This site is so full of dung as Paul would say and you so busy pointing fingers you don't even know there's more pointing back at you. Get a life and repent and study the word, YOU'LL know them by there friut, what kind of friut is this site ?????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????
Canada

#36
After reading some of your comments, I have to say that the verse of scripture that came to me was the one spoken by Jesus to then Saul of Tarsus saying: "Saul, Saul why do you persecute me!"

If this is ministry, then you have missed the spirit of the Word of God, Jesus, Holy Spirit and God Himself. Like Paul said of himself: "And zealous? Yes, in fact, I harshly persecuted the church." Phil 3:6 (NLT), Similarly, you have missed the whole point of what ministry is. Nobody is going to be perfect in ministry, not even you. Nobody is going to have the corner on truth, not even you.

I have seen your type before, Gary, and they are generally very angry people who are deeply hurt and diappointed. If you really want to have a ministry that is constructive and productive, tearing down God's ministers and justifying it as teaching what doctrine is not(ergo On Doctrine), only proves that you are out of touch with God, His purpose for your ministry, and the Body of Christ. Furthermore it reflects the fact that you think you know what you know and certainly misunderstand the principle of our Lord in "washing each other's feet." All of the above has caused you to become a person who is unaware that every time he opens his mouth, he is projecting an image to others of another angry, egotistical, critical person that thinks criticism of this kind is going to edge out the competition and garner him enough attention to guarantee himself success. This is why our Lord told us that if we would get the "log" out of our own eye first, we would see how to remove the speck out of our "brothers" eye but it . . . [rest of message lost on transmission]
United States

ON DOCTRINE NOTE:
Unfortunately, your message was cut-off during the transmission, so I did not receive it all. What I did receive, I have attached below.

I have never found that legitimate disagreement is persecution. However, secular society does adopt that belief and is rapidly incorporating that approach into the legal system throughout the world, so that any disagreement, especially in the social and religious realm, no matter how insignificant, is now considered to be "hate speech," and can, and does, result in legal action against a person and even jail terms. It is unfortunate that the same is now found in the Christian church as well. If your favorite teachers consider that disagreement with their various views is considered to be persecution, I would like to know what they will do when real persecution comes their way and I wonder why the apostle Peter did not react in the same manner when confronted by the apostle Paul, Galatians 2:11-21?

If you have found something specific on the website with which you disagree, then you should present your case in relation to the issues instead of attempting to find a fault in me through your own imagination, in which you create a scenario in my life which you have fabricated, hoping to dismiss the content regarding those issues. I don't really believe that you wish to assume the mantle of a prophet, unless you also wish to accept the responsibility as well. I am happy to discuss any doctrinal disagreement that you might have, based on your defense from the Scripture.

#37
LIICHOW AND/GARY HAND

CONTACT: HI: AM NEW TO THIS E-MAIL CORRESPONDENCE, SO NOT SURE IF I'M ADDRESSING THE RIGHT PERSONS. HOWEVER, JESSE DUPLANTIS DID HAVE AN OUT OF BODY EXPERIENCE. I'VE HAD MANY FOR THE PAST 30 YEARS, AND VISITED HIGHER DIMINSIONS (HEAVENS) ALSO. HIS "CABLE CAR" IS MENTALLY A FORM OF PROTECTION TO ASSURE HIM. (THE MIND SPEAKS TO ONE IN SYMBOLS.)I WAS OUT IN THE UNIVERSE AT THE SAME TIME THE CAPSULE WAS CIRCLING THE PLANET URANUS, AND A LITTLE FEARFUL ABOUT BEING SO FAR OUT IN THE "SOUL BODY" ALONE, THAT SUDDENLY I FOUND MYSELF IN THE CAPSULE. (A FORM OF PROTECTION, TO SATISFY THE FEARFUL MIND.) THERE IS MORE TO THE UNIVERSE AND THE EXPERIENCES OF "SOUL" (NOT JUST THE PHYSICAL BODY, WHICH IS SO

LIMITED),THAN MEETS THE EYE. PEOPLE WHO HAVE NOT EXPERIENCED THE SPIRITUAL OR SUPERNATURAL OF COURSE CRITICIZE IT, BECAUSE OF NO UNDERSTANDING OF IT.

I'VE SEEN SIMILIAR THINGS THAT JESSE SAW, BUT NOT EXACTLY EVERYTHING HE SAW. MINE MIGHT DIFFER FROM HIS SOMEWHAT, OR DIFFERENT LOCATION. HIS EXPERIENCE IS MEANT FOR HIM, MINE FOR ME, YOUR'S FOR YOU. WE ARE ALL ONE, YET ALL INDIVIDUAL. ST. PAUL WAS CAUGHT UP TO THE THIRD HEAVEN (OBVIOUSLY HE WAS OUT OF THE BODY, BUT NOT EVEN HE WAS SURE.) I'VE SEEN ANGELS TOO, THE BIGGEST WINGS YOU'VE EVER SEEN, AND HAIR OF GOLD. I'VE HAD THEM TOUCH ME WHEN I WAS AFRAID, AND THE EVIL DISAPPEARED. THE MOST GENTLE TOUCH NOT OF THIS WORLD.....SO TO THOSE NAYSAYERS, I SUGGEST TO GET MORE KNOWLEDGE AND UNDERSTANDING. TO HAVE SPIRITUAL EXPERIENCES, YOU ONLY HAVE TO OPEN YOURSELF COMPLETELY TO GOD. THANK YOU, REBECCA
United States

ON DOCTRINE NOTE:
Your explanations do not come from a biblical foundation, so they have no spiritual reality or foundation. I think you should look very closely at the source of your experiences.

#38
Sorry your vision is so limited. The Bible is broader than you could even imagine. Obviously I cast my pearls upon a group of "fundamentalists" whose visions of Truth are so limited they never experience, they only read the written word and have a mental concept of Truth. They know nothing of anything beyond, nor do they experience the power of God, or the Spoken Word, or the Knowing which supercedes Faith and the written word. It is a waste of time to communicate with persons of limited vision who lack spiritual experience. If you had the "experience" ... then you would KNOW. No more communication from me. So.... May the Blessings Be!
United States

ON DOCTRINE NOTE:
Apparently, in this theology, I must jump off a 500 foot high cliff and kill myself before I can KNOW that the "experience" will cost me my life. When experience becomes the validation of truth, trouble has already entered into a person's spiritual life.

#39
My name is M—, and I am a member of the church of jesus christ of ladder day saints. I read your artical on mormon's and you are absolutly wrong!! If you are going to post somethning about a group of people then at least get it right. We do not belive in multiple God's and if you use quotes from out leaders don't take them ot of text. Unless you know what you are talking about just don't talk.
United States

ON DOCTRINE NOTE:
If you are a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, with headquarters in Salt Lake City, Utah, and the current president of the church is Gordon Hinckley, then the official church doctrine regarding the godhead is polytheism; a plurality of gods. Mormon doctrine teaches that there are three gods who are associated with this earth:

1. God the Father
2. Jesus Christ - the first-born spirit son of God the Father and his wife, who was born in the pre- existence as a spirit being on God the Father's planet, which is not this earth. Jesus Christ received his temporal body (human physical body) in this life as a result of a literal sexual union between God the Father and Mary (who is one of his own spirit daughters, procreated by God the Father on the same planet as Jesus Christ and is the spirit sister of Jesus Christ), and the resulting child was Jesus Christ.
3. Holy Spirit - also a spirit son of God the Father and his wife who was born in the pre-existence on God the Father's planet as a spirit being, but who does not have a temporal body.

These three gods are not one individual god, but are three separate and distinct persons or personages, who are related to each other through paternity by God the Father and his wife or wives. All human beings who have ever lived or ever will live, are also spirit children of God the Father, and were all procreated in the pre-existence by God the Father and his wife or wives in the same exact manner as Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit, and are all brothers and sisters to each other and to Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit. Satan is also a spirit son of God the Father and brother to Jesus Christ, the Holy Spirit and all other human beings, "Jesus Christ, out elder brother".

All human beings who accept the precepts of the Mormon gospel in this life and qualify through the elements of the Eternal Progression, have the potential, after the resurrection, to become gods themselves, just as did God the Father. God the Father was once just a human being on some planet in a universe (not this earth) and accepted the Mormon gospel there by which he became qualified after his resurrection from the dead to become a god. All Mormon believers have the potential to become gods, but only a very few will ever achieve that status. Mormon doctrine states that the Eternal Progression (from humanity to godhood) has been going on from an infinite eternity past and will continue into an infinite eternity future, so, there are now an infinite number of gods in existence, with an infinite number to be added for an infinite eternity. That is extreme polytheism taken to its maximum extent.

It is unnecessary for me to misquote, misstate or take out of context statements by the General Authorities, because Mormon doctrine is crystal clear on the subject of a plurality of Gods. I provided the quotes and references in the article on the website, so you are able to do your own research on the subject. I suggest you question your bishop as to the nature of the godhood and the designation of Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit as gods. I would also recommend that you ask him if there are other gods on other planets in this universe or in some other universe according to Mormon doctrine. I suggest that you ask if God the Father had a father and whether that father had a father and how far back those fathers, grandfathers, great-grandfathers, etc., extend into the past.

SEE: Mormons

#40
The time you spend finding fault with brothers in the Lord (Jesse Duplantis, Oral Roberts, Copeland, etc.) should be spent on leading the lost to Christ. I've found that men who try to destroy ministries are either jealous of that ministry or working (unknowingly) for the devil. We are to love and pray for one another. Who are you to judge another man's servant? Faith works by love....maybe you should ask God to help you to love more and then you too could be a man of faith....without faith it is impossible to please God.
United States

ON DOCTRINE NOTE:
There are quite a number of issues noted on the website in relation to Oral Roberts, Jesse Duplantis and Kenneth Copeland and those are the issues to which you should first address your concerns. Does it matter that what they teach is not found in the Scripture?

It is a convenience to make an attempt to find fault with me in order to invalidate the issues raised, but that only allows you to ignore the issues based on a false criteria. Either the issues are valid or they are not, and you will never know which is the case until you deal with them from the Scripture. If you presume to love your brother and allow him to believe false doctrine without speaking to the issue, then you have not done your brother a service.

The Scripture is the judge of God's servants and is the revelation of God regarding truth, so it is the biblical imperatives that are applied to the teachings of Roberts, Duplantis and Copeland that reveal how far they have strayed from true biblical doctrine.

SEE:
Oral Roberts
Jesse Duplantis
Kenneth Copeland

#41
You guys don't have anything else better to do but to sit there and judge others. There is nothing wrong or bad about Oral Roberts. What you group of people or whoever you are need to look at is yourself and see if you are living according to the WORD OF GOD. Hell is very real and if you don't know Christ as your personal savior than you should start learning how to do that. If these people are right or wrong then God will handle that not you. Yes there are some false people out here not really teaching the Word of God but who are you to sit there and check everyone out and give your stupid take on them? The bible says to judge not! For you to sit up there and say that God did not tell people certain things is not your call nor right. You don't know what God is speaking to them. God is more than likely speaking to you so its best that you listen up to Him. I also have personal experiences where God is speaking to me about different things. He let me know that something was going to take place majore [rest of message lost on transmission]
No name, No e-mail address, No location given

ON DOCTRINE NOTE:
I find it interesting that just because a person has raised serious issues regarding Oral Roberts, you first assume that the person is not a Christian. That will not invalidate the validity of the issues, which you conveniently ignore at the expense of the integrity of God. Once again a Christian just can't seem to figure out what judgment is being prohibited in Matthew 7:1-2. When it is claimed by Oral Roberts that God said one thing to him and just the opposite happens, then God is made to be a liar in the situation, so it is quite apparent who has actually spoken and it is not God, because the Scripture defines the issue and makes the judgment:

"God is not a man that He should lie nor a son of man, that He should repent; Has He said, and will He not do it? Or has He spoken, and will He not make it good?"
--- Numbers 23:19

SEE: Oral Roberts

#42
I read the web-page you authored and would like to know why you are so outraged by Oral Roberts. I went to college at ORU in the 80's and overall came out of there a better person. I agree Oral is human and not perfect but what caused you to be so bitter?

I would appreciate hearing your response.

Sincerely,

PS: I'm not a huge OR fan or anything but just trying to figure out your motivation.
United States

ON DOCTRINE NOTE:
Welcome to On Doctrine, T—
Thank you for you visit and message on the Contact page.

I think the article about Oral Roberts is clear regarding the nature of the issues involved, and they must be dealt with in relation to the Scripture. The outrage is that he claims revelatory words from God that make God into a liar in relation to the results of what it is claimed that God has said. You should be concerned also.

There is no bitterness expressed toward Oral Roberts in the articles. I do not know how you come to that conclusion. The fact that I raise issues in relation to the Scripture does not mean that I have some deeply harbored embitterment toward Oral Roberts. The issues are simply what he says in relation to what the Scripture says about his claims.

I am quite sure you received a fine education at ORU, which is not part of the issue as such, unless you were a medical student involved in the City of Faith fiasco.

#43
Gary,

Thanks for your response, I understand your frustration if you were a medical student in that era.

Thanks for your time,
United States

ON DOCTRINE NOTE:
Thanks for your reply. No, I was not a medical student at ORU, so I have no frustration quotient as an incentive to discuss Oral Roberts on the website. The issue is strictly what Oral Roberts says in relation to what he claims God said to him, and those claims make God into a liar.

#44
Satan has preocupied you. Instead of being busy praising The Almighty God with your time you are busy destroying those you cannot destroy. Tell me what you have started and completed atlease we can see them affecting others positively. They may not be sent to you just as Jesus was and is not for everybody as he was raised for the rise and fall of others. This ministers are obviouly raised for you downfall except you ask for forgiveness and keep quiet.

Ask you brother Pharaoh, as he was bent on destroying the Jews he himself was eternally liquidated by the Jesus that those you hate are preaching.

We have not heard truth from your mouth that means you are fathered by Satan. You have taken side with Osama Bin Laden, instead of paradise where those you are accusing are going you are heading straight to hell unless you repent.

I ask you to repent in the name of Jesus these ministers are preaching,
United Kingdom

#45
Let me ask you something... what if you are wrong and Pastor Benny Hinn really is a man of God....are you willing to stand before God Almighty and accuse him like you are accusing him now? If you read your Bible you would see that the wrath of God falls on those who go against his anointed and I really wouldn't like to be in your shoes! My mother's foot was healed through his ministry and many others I know and I know for a fact that he is a man of God. And anyway, where in the Bible does it say create whole web pages against anybody? Find me a verse that says your are called to accuse others and find their mistakes?....oh yeah, now i remember... it says that the accuser of the bretheren is the devil... are you trying to get his position? It's none of your business if I or anyone else believe that this is a man of God so if you believe otherwise, keep your mouth shut and keep your ideas to yourself.

On fire for Jesus,
United States

ON DOCTRINE NOTE:
The Scripture has already spoken regarding the state of false prophets, by quoting the direct words of God on the subject: Deuteronomy 18:20-22, Deuteronomy 13:1-11. You must deal with the false prophecies of Benny Hinn before you attempt to defend him before his detractors and you must make a choice as to where the authority lies, the Scripture or Benny Hinn. I will remain with God's word on the subject.

SEE: Prophecies of Benny Hinn

#46
just read your criticism of John Thomas and have decide that you must be a complete retard.,
New Mexico, United States

ON DOCTRINE NOTE:
SEE: The article, Christadelphians

#47
Novice Gary Hand

"The ulterior motive behind the teaching of the prayer of Agreement doctrine is to obtain money from adherents. Money is the goal and heart of virtually every Word of Faith ministry." ....???????

Gary,
Obviously, to most who have read your comments, within your dogma is MANY gainsaying manifastations through your opinions. You totally misunderstood the lesson on the "The Prayer of Agreement".
http://www.nephos.com/patriapge69.htm

You miss the name of YHWH, you miss the "Whole of the understanding" that the outline gave, and support an opinion/ideal with no works what-so-ever except YOUR biblical understanding & attacking opinions to back up your claims.

You miss the quintessential principal within the 4th foundational stone in Hebrews 6:1-3, as well as the underlining concept of "Both Houses of israel becoming one nation"!

You even miss the "enemy" of the soul/" within the called out nation" that well documents it's links for all to see in the outlines of patria Volumes 1 & 2.

Good luck in your "Ministry" that has no "Works".
Do you have Faith? Then show the "MANY" your works, not your unbiblical opinions.

Obviously your not understanding the first foundational principal given in hebrews/chapter 6 that Sha'ul wrote to the called out nation within BOTH HOUSES OF ISRAEL.....try again if you so will......
http://nephos.com/patriapage07.htm
Idaho, United States

ON DOCTRINE NOTE:
SEE: PRAYER OF AGREEMENT

In your haste to support your preconceived idea about what you believe constitutes an agreement, as being the same in every situation, you have conveniently ignored the reality of what is being agreed upon in Matthew 18:19. There are many kinds of agreements regarding many situations, which may or may not be related to each other.The Scripture is quite clear that the agreement in Matthew 18:19 is in relation to the discipline of a sinning believer and nothing more. Whether you wish to accept that reality is irrelevant in relation to the truth of the matter.

Your attempt to connect Matthew 18:19 with Hebrews 6:1-3 is completely without foundation and is an attempt to force Matthew 18:19 to say what it does not and also circumvents what was previously being stated by Jesus Christ in Matthew 18:15-18 regarding the discipline of the sinning brother. What was being called for in relation to the sinning brother in Matthew 18:15-19 was repentance from sin, not from works.

I fail to see the connection to YWHY, since He is not the subject of Matthew 18:15-19 but is the One who enforces the elements of the agreement in relation to the sinning believer. God is a party to that specific agreement as it relates to the elements of verses 15-17 and the teaching by Jesus Christ regarding that specific situation, and to no other agreement not stated in those verses. If you wish to assert that the agreement in verse 19 includes any other type of agreement between two or more believers, by which they assert some type of coercion against God by which He must act on their behalf, then you have falsely interpreted the passage by means of an eisegetical insertion of a pre- conceived meaning outside the context of the verses.

As a note, you should not assume that which is not stated or presented, unless you wish your criticism to be classified in the novice category also. I have never claimed that On Doctrine is a ministry, so that is your error. "On Doctrine is an informational resource website, dealing with doctrines and issues of discernment related to biblical theology. On Doctrine is not a ministry." That description is stated on the About page at: www.ondoctrine.com/00about.htm

#48
"The ulterior motive behind the teaching of the Prayer of Agreement doctrine is to obtain money from adherents. Money is the goal and heart of virtually every Word of Faith ministry." ....??????? THIS IS WHAT YOU SAID IN YOUR ARTICAL !!!!!

That is what novices say when they want to make all their seminary jargon look somewhat educational and trite.

Your obviously a RELIGIOUS person who has missed the boat completly on the Catholic side of the spectrum. All opinions about nothing except gainsaying! It's quite obvious your anti reformational, schooled possibly by a bunch of foolish Jesuits?

Repentance from DEAD WORKS would be a good start for you, but your probably to high in your educational ego for that, right?........remember you said this, not anyone else, YOU! "The ulterior motive behind the teaching of the Prayer of Agreement doctrine is to obtain money from adherents. Money is the goal and heart of virtually every Word of Faith ministry."
Idaho, United States

ON DOCTRINE NOTE:
Specifically, what portion of the article on the Prayer of Agreement represents my view of "the Catholic side of the spectrum," and the doctrine of "a bunch of foolish Jesuits?" Just how does that article represent any type of "anti reformational" perspective?

You may wish to reject a proper explanation of the passage, which is your privilege and also your loss, but that explanation will not disappear simply because you classify a person erroneously in an attempt to divert the issue and make it go away. I am not Catholic, have not been taught by Jesuits, and even a cursory examination of the On Doctrine website would reveal that it represents Reformed theology.

#49
I didn't notice The Adulterer & Murderer King David amounst your hall of shamers is there a reason for this.
United Kingdom

ON DOCTRINE NOTE:
King David was not included in the Hall of Shame, because he is already included in the Scriptural record and has been an example for the world to view for several thousand years, so I defer to that depiction as being much more comprehensive and far-reaching than the On Doctrine website.

The Hall of Shame changes as individuals are added and others removed, but it is not anticipated that it will grow to a longer list in any significant manner. The Hall of Shame is not designed to be a comprehensive list of individuals or groups, but is a representative example to the church membership of what type of conduct, in relation to church leadership, is prohibited by Scripture and disqualifies an individual from holding the office of a pastor, elder, deacon, teacher or aspiring leader in their field, 1 Timothy 3:1-13; Titus 1:6-9.

The basic issue involved in the Hall of Shame is the question, Why is the church increasingly accepting the conduct and beliefs represented in the examples and the claims of the individuals to retain their leadership positions when the Scripture prohibits such conduct and claims? Where does the authority lie, with the teacher or the Scripture?

#50
I just visited your website after hearing Richard Roberts mention your name tonight on the Hour of Healing show. I never knew there were people like you and your organization out there criticizing and attacking such outstanding men like Brother Roberts, Kenneth Copeland, Kenneth Hagin, etc. who have done such outstanding work in teaching Christians how to live victoriously in this present world.

What are you doing besides watching them? It seems to me that you need to spend more time in I Corinthians 13, and less time writing about other ministries.

Could it be a case of sour grapes, Mr. Hand? I pray God's Spirit of wisdom and revelation will be given to you.
Name given. No e-mail address given. No location given.

ON DOCTRINE NOTE:
Welcome to On Doctrine, —.
Thank you for your visit and message on the Contact page.

I am aware of Richard Roberts' comment about me on his program of October 31. It is quite an amazing situation when a person claiming to be a prophet of God assumes the mantle and position of God in order to make a pronouncement regarding the salvation of a particular individual. Nowhere have I made a statement indicating that Richard Roberts is not saved and I have not called his salvation into question, since that is a right only possessed by God. Even God does not judge, but leaves that prerogative to Jesus Christ, John 5:22. It is astounding that a person, who claims to represent Jesus Christ, would claim that a disagreement over the nature of healing would place a person in the same company with those who crucified Jesus Christ, the very implication and point of Richard Roberts' comment being that I would crucify Jesus Christ. I would pray that God would open Richard Roberts' eyes to the serious nature of such a horrific claim against a believer.

It is especially telling that he questions my salvation, not based on the gospel message, but on my disagreement with him over the issue of healing. Since when is healing a salvation issue, and where in the Scripture can it be found that belief or non-belief in healing determines the validity of salvation? Since I very strongly affirm that God heals, Richard Roberts' attempt to question my salvation based on his assertion that I do not believe in healing, is without foundation. God seemingly speaks to Richard Roberts virtually on a daily basis, so I am surprised that he deliberately misstated my position on healing. Not only did he deliberately misstate my position, but he fabricated a scenario about my beliefs that is totally false. His statement that I do not believe in healing and hate healing is absolutely false, because I have never denied the healing power of God and have never made such statements on the website or in any other forum. What I do deny is the type and scope of healings that are claimed by both Oral and Richard Roberts. God can and does heal at any time and place at His good pleasure.

What I find interesting is that my small and obscure website has apparently struck a very sensitive nerve in Richard Roberts, because I am sure he has been criticized by many more individuals who are much more important and better placed than I. What he managed to do was introduce his listeners to a portal by which they will find an article that is very different from that which he portrayed on his program and those people will very quickly see that what he claimed that I believe is not what is stated. In addition, people will also be introduced to the scrutiny of some of his other favorite teachings, such as Matthew 18:19, Prayer of Agreement, which he again misstated and abused on the program that night. He has done himself a great disfavor in an attempt to villify me.

The article about him has been sitting innocuously on the website for almost three years, the only changes made were to add the link to the Prayer of Agreement doctrine and to make a few spelling corrections, so his implication that I am continually adding material and "beating up on me on a regular basis" is a deception. I know he was trying to play the part of a martyr, but I am not impressed with that approach.

I am not sure why you mention sour grapes, because On Doctrine is not in any competition with Richard Roberts which might give me an incentive to discuss his particular doctrines. I have no desire to have a television program or usurp his. On Doctrine is an informational resource and is not a ministry, does not solicit money for support, does not accept support of any kind and has no organization, employees, volunteers, disciples, adherents or congregation, so, in relation to Richard Roberts' organization, it cannot be claimed that I am a threat to his resources, and personally, it matters nothing to me what Richard Roberts does in his ministry. What is important is what Richard and Oral Roberts say about the direct words they claim to receive from God, and what those words indicate in relation to the character and integrity of God and Jesus Christ. If you read the articles on the website, then you should know the substance of those issues.

The articles on Richard and Oral Roberts, as well as Kenneth Copeland, speak for themselves and require no defense. There are issues raised that go far beyond the trivia expressed on the television program and are issues with which you must eventually deal with yourself. It is a convenience to try to find fault with my motive in an attempt to invalidate the issues, but those issues will not go away, whether they are raised by me or someone else.

SEE The Articles:
Richard Roberts
Oral Roberts
Kenneth Copeland
The Prayer of Agreement - The False Claims Regarding Matthew 18:19
Giving and Receiving

SEE The Source of Richard Roberts' Comments:
RECENT BROADCASTS - The Hour Of Healing, Select: Monday, October 31, 2005 - 2-hour television broadcast

#51
Gary have you bothered to investigate the "thousands" of medically documented miracles that have happened through the Richard Roberts ministry?

Jesus would challenge falsehood and charlatanism, but He would demonstrate love, patience and balance. Richard Roberts is saved like you and me and he is administrating one of the most reputable and execellent universities which stresses lifestyles centered on Christ and preaching the Gospel with skill and creativity and faithfulness.

Those who are not against Me, are for Me says the Lord. You are speaking out against someone who loves Jesus and other men and women who love Him and are loved by Him.

Just a point of perspective.

Also, I noticed that you didn't have information on Carlton Pearson and he was removed from the Board of Regents due to his New Age doctrine. He is traveling the world preaching that man cannot go to hell and that all men were saved and just don't know it. He is a true cult leader and bases his life on his ego and is fleecing the flock of God and deceiving American and African Blacks. He was once the Pastor for Carman the singer who has now distanced himself from Carlton.

Take Care and Colossians 1:10-14.
Hawaii, United States

ON DOCTRINE NOTE:
Thank you for your visit and message on the On Doctrine Contact page.

I do not know if you were responding to the article about Richard Roberts on the On Doctrine website or his comments on his TV broadcast on Monday, October 31, 2005. I assume you were responding to the article, but if you have not read it, you can find it at:
www.ondoctrine.com/10roberr.htm

You might also read the companion article regarding Oral Roberts at: www.ondoctrine.com/10robero.htm

If you did not see the two-hour TV broadcast, I suggest that you go to the ORM website and view the video.
http://orm.cc

I wish to impress upon you in the strongest manner possible, that it is absolutely of no consequence or concern to me personally what Richard Roberts said about me on the television broadcast or in any other private or public venue. My reply here is not an attempt to defend my honor or character or any other aspect of myself, because the issue is about Richard Roberts and the place he presumes to occupy that allowed him to make the statements that he did, and the place where he now stands as a result of those statements. The nature of the statements is the subject under consideration, not the fact that they were directed toward me, or the effect that they might have on me or my personal reaction to them.

Richard Roberts referred to me specifically by name on his television broadcast of October 31, 2005, and he made five major statements about what he claimed to know and declared were my beliefs, and what he implied would be my action if I were given the chance to perform it. Those statements are quoted below, to which I have replied.

1. ". . . he doesn't believe in healing."
2. ". . . there are people out there on the Internet who are preaching against me, because they don't believe in healing."
3. "And he didn't like healing at all."

I find it strange that God speaks to Richard Roberts virtually on a daily basis, but He has failed to correct Richard Roberts for deliberately speaking falsely about what I believe in relation to healing. I do not deny healing and I do not deny the ability and reality that God can and does heal at His good pleasure. His statement that I don't like healing is absolutely false and was stated without any foundation. Richard Roberts fabricated a definition of my beliefs. Richard Roberts is willing and finds it necessary and acceptable, to speak falsely on national television without remorse and without conscience, and to that reality I consign my doubts that are now confirmed, to his claims that he receives revelation from God. On Monday evening, Richard Roberts became his own worst enemy, because he deliberately spoke falsely in the face of God and publicly in the face of the world.

4. "Fact, I'm not sure he even knows God."
5. "He reminds me of the religious leaders who put Jesus on the Cross. This guy wouldn't know the Lord if he met Him coming down the road, and he jumpin' on me for believin' on God to get people healed."

Whether or not a person knows God is not the prerogative of Richard Roberts to determine. Only God knows the reality of salvation in the life of an individual and only Jesus Christ has the authority to judge a person and declare a person to be saved or damned, John 5:22.

The saddest commentary on Richard Roberts is the fact that he spoke in the name of Jesus Christ and then proceeded to usurp the position of Jesus Christ by presuming that he had the right, ability and authority to determine the validity of a person's salvation, based not on the message of the gospel, but solely on opposition to his particular claims regarding healing. I am unaware that belief in his particular view of healing is a necessary adjunct of the gospel message and determines whether a person has obtained salvation.

Additionally, he went even further, by asserting that disagreement with his claims about healing places an individual in the same class as those who crucified Jesus Christ, and by a direct implication, he was asserting that I would have crucified Jesus Christ had I been given the opportunity. Richard Roberts' indifference and insensitivity to the serious nature of his statements in relation to the position and authority of Jesus Christ as the sole judge of salvation, indicates that he does not understand the truly horrific nature of the assertions that he made and the accountability to God to which he has called himself by assuming the duties of Jesus Christ which he does not have.

The issue is solely about the nature of what Richard Roberts says in relation to the nature and character of God and Jesus Christ. In his statements of Monday night, he had no difficulty claiming for himself authority reserved only to Jesus Christ and making salvation conditional on agreement with his particular teaching about healing, and in the process, changing the very nature of the gospel message and the requirements that the Scripture stipulates that God uses in order to grant salvation. That is a fundamentally serious error that Richard Roberts needs to address quickly. It is quite unacceptable that a person of his position and length of time in ministry would deliberately add to the gospel message based on his own agenda.

Richard Roberts employed a trick, used in debates to mislead the audience, called a "Straw Man" argument, by which he fabricated and contrived statements against his opponent and then proceeded to argue against those statements that he created. The undiscerning listener would believe that he was eloquently expounding on the oracles of God and brilliant in arguing against his opponent, but he was only creating a diversion of smoke by arguing against his false assertions so that the real issues could be ignored.

The other major issues are in relation to prophecy; the acceptance of the false prophecies of his father and his acceptance and participation in ministry with Benny Hinn and Kenneth Copeland, both of whom have spoken false prophecies and especially Kenneth Copeland who holds to possibly the greatest number of heretical teachings by any person who operates in the church today. Benny Hinn is probably the most high profile and documented false prophet, and Kenneth Copeland is probably the most high profile and documented teacher of heresy.

SEE:
Oral Roberts False Prophecies and the City of Faith
www.ondoctrine.com/10robero.htm#prophecies

Oral Roberts and His Revelation From God Regarding Jim Bakker
www.ondoctrine.com/10robero.htm#bakker

The False Prophecies of Benny Hinn
www.ondoctrine.com/10hinn.htm#prophecies

Kenneth Copeland
www.ondoctrine.com/10copela.htm

Unlike Richard Roberts who has presumed on the place of Jesus Christ as the judge of salvation, I have not questioned or made any pronouncement regarding the reality of his salvation. Since Richard Roberts is a professed believer in the gospel message, then the reality of his salvation is determined by the judgment of Jesus Christ and not myself, so I have not made any statement toward that end. What I do question are his beliefs and statements that come under the authority of the Scripture and change the nature and character of God and Jesus Christ who are revealed there. Healing is really not the issue, but is only a symptom of a much broader spectrum of issues and difficulties that entangle the doctrines and ministry of Richard Roberts.

Those are the issues that every believer who listens to Richards Roberts needs to consider, and they are the issues that you must also consider and resolve. Where does the authority lie, in the words of Richard Roberts or in the Scripture as the word of God, and who judges the living and the dead, Richard Roberts or Jesus Christ?

#52
Hi Gary,

You know Richard was probably "informed by someone on or off of his staff", about you and some of the things you have posted. If you wrote to him and let him know how you felt and what your beliefs are, it could result in the "being at peace with all men" that our Bibles tell us to strive for.

There are things that you and he will never agree on and some that you do. The same Christ shed His blood for you and washed away your sins and He loves and hears both of you.

Its odd what is happening. Hopefully, the Lord will end up turning anything the Devil meant for evil, to good. Hopefully the debate and exchange and misunderstanding will lift and result in a mutual understanding and a respect somehow for each other rather than a bad witness and rift between two men saved by His grace. Lord we pray even now that You will use this and turn it around to be something that bears good fruit and results in love and compassion!

I agree with some of the things you bring to light and I have concerns and some anger with some of the teachings you mention. A couple of those ministers you have named, I can't even listen to. I decided long ago to not unrighteously judge them and to look for what we all can possibly have in common, but not compromising at the same time.

I also know that Richard loves the Lord and has based the second half of his life on preaching and teaching the word of the Lord and ministering to the sick and much more. He recently lost his mother and that causes deep ripples in the soul and more insecurity or loose feelings if you will.

"Blessed are the peace makers" and you can be gentle and humble and let him know what you might agree with on. The "world" is watching and the Body is looking to both of you, to be Christ -like. His dad is elderly and Richard is managing a huge college and several ministries, traveling and preaching and praying for the sick and the oppressed. And he is a Dad of maturing kids. He probably was incited to be angry or reactionary to "an attack" whether imagined or partially true. He may be afraid of losing his dad and so he is very sensitive about the legacy and the ministry. When you are deeply emotional about an elderly parent you are more susceptible to reacting to perceived or literal attacks on their accomplishments.

If you ever read FactNet.org and see how ministers are not just exposed but really hated and cursed and belittled as well as other blogs that are just violent and crazy, you can understand why there is an "attitude" about being blogged. If they are coming out of debts and fear that being blogged will hurt the work then they are fighting for their lives and for a ministry that God birthed and built for the most part.

You might ask to come on the show and share what you have in common when this is resolved. Jesus would resolve it in peace and understanding both for you and for him.

I wish and pray the best for both of you.
"Don't let the sun go down on your wrath, giving place to the devil." Ephesians chapter 4 to you and we will be writing to the Roberts as well.

It should be more than rhetoric that Christians especially leaders and watchman, work out conflict with love and understanding and end in legitimate, tangible peace.

I did see part of something he said one night and I was surprised that he was frayed over it. He really values healing and he has been sacrificing his life, hours hours hours for that programming and the University. Your feelings are deeply important and your reputation and his should be respected even where you may disagree.

"Don't let your good be evil spoken of."
"Let your gentleness be known to all men".

When I read your website and heard the program I was surprised at the responses.
It is not cool, not Christian for either of you to "black and white" the relationship that either of you have with the Lord or your sincerity or veracity even if inaccuracies are present.

I am not sure why he was so reactionary and I am not sure why the healings that are well documented are not respected more in those circles where the charismatic is contested.

If he has the wrong response, you can have a right one, a sound one. If he knew your love for the Lord and your belief in healing, he would feel differently when whatever this provocation is passes. And, you may want to consider if there is anything you can retract or apologize for also. The Devil must not win through the pride and hurt or opinion and passions of two men who love the same Savior.

I am sorry you were hurt and raged at and I am sorry Richard feels the same way. You both have a lot of praying to do and loving. I have to notice God's own statements that mercy is greater than judgment.

God Bless and Encourage You!

ON DOCTRINE NOTE:
I think you have allowed Richard Roberts to slip through your fingers much to easily in relation to the Scripture. The Scripture is the issue and the authority that it has in relation to doctrine, belief and conduct. With that reality, I leave the issue with God.

#53
Here are a few verses to keep in mind when you claim that many of the healing ministries are false. I feel that you are basing your cliams on a small, twisted veiw of a few verses since that on almost every refuting claim against your claims, you keep repeating the same verse, sometimes dodging the issue altogether.

Mark 16:17-18
17And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues; 18They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.

Psalms 103:2-5
2Bless the LORD, O my soul, and forget not all his benefits:
3Who forgiveth all thine iniquities; who healeth all thy diseases;
4Who redeemeth thy life from destruction; who crowneth thee with lovingkindness and tender mercies;
5Who satisfieth thy mouth with good things; so that thy youth is renewed like the eagle's.

Romans 8:11
11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you. (If the same Spirit of God resides in all that have accepted Christ as his savior, then why would we not be able to do the things described in the previous sets of verses?)

Matthew 18:18-20 NIV
18 I tell you the truth, whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.
19 Again, I tell you that if two of you on earth agree about anything you ask for, it will be done for you by my Father in heaven.
20 For where two or three come together in my name, there am I with them.

Mark 11:12-14,20-26
12 The next day as they were leaving Bethany, Jesus was hungry.
13 Seeing in the distance a fig-tree in leaf, he went to find out if it had any fruit. When he reached it, he found nothing but leaves, because it was not the season for figs.
14 Then he said to the tree, May no-one ever eat fruit from you again. And his disciples heard him say it.

20 In the morning, as they went along, they saw the fig-tree withered from the roots.
21 Peter remembered and said to Jesus, Rabbi, look! The fig-tree you cursed has withered! 22 Have faith in God, Jesus answered.
23 I tell you the truth, if anyone says to this mountain, 'Go, throw yourself into the sea,' and does not doubt in his heart but believes that what he says will happen, it will be done for him.
24 Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask for in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours.
25 -26 And when you stand praying, if you hold anything against anyone, forgive him, so that your Father in heaven may forgive you your sins.

Proverbs 18:21
21 Death and life are in the power of the tongue: and they that love it shall eat the fruit thereof.

John 14:10-14
10Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.
11Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake.
12Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.
13And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son.
14If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it.

These sets of verses are just a few of many in which God shows that he will do his works through us. Whether it be healing, casting out devils, or just blessing his people, God says that if we ask in His name, it will be done. One reason not all people are healed is that not all people will have that mustard seed measure of faith that it will happen. Doubt and fear are not of God, therefore God will not work where there is no faith in his works(Mark 11:23). Also some things are natural in this world and are a part of God's Plan for that person's life. We do not know whether God intended our physical death to be a healing from sickness since when we die, if we are saved, we are separated from the physical body.

As for Richard Roberts, God has healed physical and visible things through the agreement of Richard and the person that was healed (Matthew 18:19). He has shown before and after pictures of these people and even shown video testimony from some of these people.

I realize that there have been, and probably still are false ministries, but not all healing ministries are false. Saying that God does not heal through these men of God basiclly, through your arguments compared to the scriptures I listed, contridicts what the bible says and tells me, based on your arguements, that the bible is false. And if you have "proven" the bible to be false, then you cannot stand on your few scripture refferences that you commonly provide because you would be basing your knowledge on something that you proved not to be true. I am not saying the Bible is false, I am just looking at your comments on healing based on what the Bible says. These scriptures that I have provided show that God is still working through these ministries and shows that healing ministries do not contrict the bible, therefore proves the bible to be true.
No name given. No contact information given, No location given.

ON DOCTRINE NOTE:
I think you have set your sights a little too broad in the attempt to support your version of the healing claims that are said to be found in the Scripture.

1. I have dealt with the issue of Mark 16:9-20 in the following article: "Why Do You Deny the Words of Jesus Christ in Mark 16:17-18?"
Mark 16:9-20 is a later addition to the Scripture (an interpolation) and was not written by Mark, so it is not authoritative in what it says. The passage does not agree with what the rest of Scripture says on the same subjects, so Scripture itself confirms the false nature of the passage.

2. Psalm 103:2-5 is a promise to Israel under the Old Covenant. So unless you are Covenant Israel those promises are not for you. In addition, the promises were conditional, based on Israel's performance in relation to the commands of God. Before you attempt to apply the verses to Christian life today, you must explain why, if God heals all the diseases, that not every person in Israel was healed. Even David's infant son was not healed by God, but was stricken with a fatal illness by God so that he died, "Then the Lord struck the child that Uriah's widow bore to David, so that he was very sick. . . . Then it happened on the seventh day that the child died," 2 Samuel 12:15, 18.

3. Romans 8:11 is a reference to the resurrection of the dead and receiving a new body fit for eternal life. It has nothing to do with healing. If you wish to claim that it supports the claims of healers that they are able to raise the dead, then they had better get busy producing those documented cases.

4. Matthew 18:18-20.
I have dealt with the false claims regarding that passage in the article on the website: Prayer of Agreement: The False Claims About Matthew 18:19
I very strongly recommend that you read that article before you adopt the statements of your teachers about that verse.

5. Mark 11:12-14, 20-26.
The question is, why are not all things done for Christians? Is there not some Christian who has everything they ever wanted, has eternal life in this life because they believed they could be healed of every disease, or have healed the entire world because they believed God for that miracle? Did the apostles reflect the view that they could have anything by their faith or belief, so that God would have to grant whatever they desired? The apostle John was exiled to Patmos, Paul was not healed and the other apostles were all likely martyred. So, why were they not healed and protected?

The passages in Mark are inextricably connected with 1 John 5:14:
"Now this is the confidence that we have in Him, that if we ask anything according to His will, he hears us. And if we know that He hears us, whatever we ask, we know that we have the petitions that we have asked of Him."

Jesus said to the disciples, "Have faith in God", not, 'have faith in your faith'. Present day healers presume to say that the desire of the believer in agreement with another results in the application of a force of faith upon God by which He is committed to act on the behalf of the believer. This is the complete opposite of the Scriptural teaching states that it is the will of God that determines His action and that faith is granted to the believer in relation to that will.
SEE: The article - Can you explain Mark 11:12-23?

6. Proverbs 18:21
It is quite unbelievable that you adopt this verse as a reference to healing. I know that virtually all Word of Faith teachers make that connection, including Kenneth Copeland, but that is simply a false application. The power of the tongue is the power of a leader to command death or grant a reprieve from death. If you believe, as your teachers state, that you can raise the dead through the mystical power of the words that you say, then again, it is time to produce the documentation in order to support those claims. No current or past Word of Faith teacher has ever raised a person from the dead.

7. John 14:10-14
Again, that passage in inextricably connected with 1 John 5:14. The accomplishment of any request is contingent on the will of God, not your will, the will of your teacher or the corporate will of a group of believers.

Healing is not accomplished through some agreement with another person or teacher. I understand that is the intent of the false teaching regarding Matthew 18:19, but it is just that - false. Healing is accomplished because it is the will of God, which many teachers, including Kenneth Copeland, deny that believers should defer. To defer to the will of God is defined by them as expressing doubt or fear which they say invalidates the request. Again, an unbiblical teaching of the highest level of false teaching.

Richard Roberts outdid himself on his October 31, 2005, television broadcast, when he usurped the place of God and Jesus Christ by presuming he had the authority to determine who has salvation or does not have salvation, based not on the gospel message but solely by their agreement or disagreement with him regarding a particular view of healing. Additionally, he presumed to fabricate a scenario regarding my beliefs by which he deliberately claimed that I hold beliefs that I do not, so he claimed to be true what was and is false and he did so without remorse or conscience. And then he presumed to charge me with being of the same group who crucified Jesus Christ and by direct implication inferred that I would crucify Jesus Christ if given the chance.

You may wish to defend your teacher, but you should look very long and hard at the reality of what Richard Roberts claims to be, as a representative of Jesus Christ, and that which he reveals by what he says and does.

SEE:
Richard Roberts
Oral Roberts
Oral Roberts - His Prophecies
Prayer of Agreement - The False Claims About Matthew 18:19
Kenneth Copeland, Kenneth Hagin, Mark 11:22-23 and False Prophecies
Giving and Receiving - The current version of "Seed Faith"
Kenneth Copeland
Kenneth Copeland: What Did He Say?

#54
Be carefull how you use the word "prophet" in your claims, there is a difference between a prophet and a disciple. A prophet is one who through God tells of things to come in relation to the Kingdom of God. A disciple is a follower of Christ. Disciples can recieve gifts of the spirit to heal, cast out demons, and the gift of prophecy. Just becuase someone has the gift of prophecy, it does not make them a prophet. There were a select few that were prophets, but, there were many and still are many that recieve visions or words from God about future things.

ON DOCTRINE NOTE:
I have difficulty understanding your definition of a prophet. How is it that a person who receives prophecies, "the gift of prophecy", is not considered to be a prophet?

I quite understand that you adopt that particular view in an attempt to remove responsibility from individuals whose prophecies, as a result of their "gift of prophecy", do not come true. You are trying to claim that it doesn't really matter if a prophecy, as a "gift of prophecy", does not come true, because it is not considered to be equal to the prophecies of the office of a "prophet". So, you claim that the words of God in one instance are not as important as the words of God in another, and a revelation in one venue is not as important as one in another. Sorry, you don't have a case.

SEE:
Does God Still Give Revelation Today?
Does God Still Give Prophecies?

#55
I was just made aware of the allegations made by you against Richard Roberts on this website. My question is: Whose doctrine do you follow? Is it John MacArthur, or is it a particular denomination? You openly express the fact that you have no theology degree, and yet you seem to express authority over many that have made their life studying Scripture.

Do you believe that God's Word is alive, or is it dead? Do you actively read Scripture on a daily basis. Hebrews 4:12 states that the Word of God is "...living and active, sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing until it divides soul from spirit, joints from marrow, it is able to judge the thoughts and intentions of the heart." (NRSV) I have found that as I read a Scripture over again several months later, that it can speak to me in a different way or a different emphasis on that Scripture is brought to my mind and heart to help me during that day. That's what I believe is the difference between God's Word being alive or dead.

So it can also be with healing. God gives healing to people as a gift. I hope you still believe that God can heal today. If not, please don't despise those that do, for God also gives people faith to first (and most importantly) believe in salvation and then for other things in their lives. I have seen firsthand healing miracles...some that happen immediately and then some over time. Have you ever had an experience with God in this way?

This letter is not to condemn or attack you, Gary. I merely pray that the Lord show you personally that His healing hand still cures the sick today and that He uses people like Richard Roberts (who you may think is a smart thief taking people's money for promises from God) as merely a man believing in His promises in the Bible. May the Lord show you that He is indeed alive and well working in the lives of his people.

God's Blessings to you,
Iowa, United States

ON DOCTRINE NOTE:
Welcome to On Doctrine, —. Thank you for your visit and message on the On Doctrine Contact page.

I do not know if you were responding to the article about Richard Roberts on the On Doctrine website or his comments on his TV broadcast on Monday, October 31, 2005.

If you have not read the article, you can find it at: Richard Roberts

You might also read the companion article regarding Oral Roberts at:
Oral Roberts

If you did not see Richard Roberts' two-hour TV broadcast, I suggest that you go to the ORM website and view the video.
http://orm.cc

I remember 12 men; five were fishermen, one was a tax collector, one was a political militant and five were obscure in their background, but they all exercised authority over the church and none of them had theological degrees. I do not claim any authority, because the authority is vested in the Scripture, which is the basis of any critical review of the doctrines, conduct and qualifications of the persons discussed on the website.

The Scripture can be considered alive because it continually speaks to people in different ways, and there is always some new truth that can be gleaned from a particular passage, not because the truth wasn't always there but because our perspective changes with the directions that life takes, and the Holy Spirit brings to the forefront those things we need to know. But the real life of the Scripture is in relation to what it is, the very mind of God directed to human beings, which is absolute truth. The word is alive, because it is the continuing avenue of salvation, it is spiritual food, gives comfort in our sorrows and is also the tool of judgment which penetrates to the heart and lays bare all motives, beliefs and doctrines.It is reality because of its origin and it is powerful because it is administered by the Holy Spirit.

The measure of whether a person considers the Word to be alive or dead is found in the manner in which they treat the Author and what they consider themselves to be in relation to His authority over their lives and not their authority over Him.

I wish to impress upon you in the strongest manner possible, that it is absolutely of no consequence or concern to me personally what Richard Roberts said about me on the television broadcast or in any other private or public venue. My reply here is not an attempt to defend my honor or character or any other aspect of myself, because the issue is about Richard Roberts and the place he presumes to occupy that allowed him to make the statements that he did, and the place where he now stands as a result of those statements. The nature of the statements is the subject under consideration, not the effect that they might have on me or my personal reaction to them.

Richard Roberts referred to me specifically by name on his television broadcast of October 31, 2005, and he made five major statements about what he claimed to know and declared were my beliefs, and what he implied would be my action if I were given the chance to perform it. Those statements are quoted below, to which I have replied.

1. ". . . he doesn't believe in healing."
2. ". . . there are people out there on the Internet who are preaching against me, because they don't believe in healing."
3. "And he didn't like healing at all."

Richard Roberts claims that God speaks to him, virtually on a daily basis, but He has failed to correct Richard Roberts for deliberately speaking falsely about what I believe in relation to healing.

(1). I do not deny healing.
(2). I do not deny the ability and reality that God can and does heal at His good pleasure.
(3). I do not dislike healing in any way.

Richard Roberts simply fabricated statements about my beliefs in order to foster his own agenda. He is willing, and finds it necessary and acceptable, to speak falsely about a person's beliefs on national television without remorse and without conscience, and to that reality I consign my doubts that are now confirmed, regarding his claims that he receives revelation from God. On Monday evening, Richard Roberts became his own worst enemy, because he deliberately spoke falsely in the face of God and publicly in the face of the world.

4. "Fact, I'm not sure he even knows God."
5. "He reminds me of the religious leaders who put Jesus on the Cross. This guy wouldn't know the Lord if he met Him coming down the road, and he jumpin' on me for believin' on God to get people healed."

Whether or not a person knows God is not the prerogative of Richard Roberts to determine, and no person is obligated to prove their salvation to Richard Roberts' satisfaction. Only God knows the reality of salvation in the life of an individual and only Jesus Christ has the authority to judge a person and declare a person to be saved or damned, John 5:22.

The saddest commentary on Richard Roberts is the fact that he spoke in the name of Jesus Christ and then proceeded to usurp the position of Jesus Christ by presuming that he had the ability, right and authority to determine the validity of a person's salvation, based not on the message of the gospel, but solely on opposition to his particular claims regarding healing. The gospel message makes no claim that agreement with Richard Roberts' particular view of healing is a necessary adjunct of the gospel message and determines whether a person has obtained salvation. If that necessary aspect of salvation can be found in the Scripture, I would be grateful if he, or anyone, would point to the passage.

Additionally, he went even further, by asserting that disagreement with his claims about healing places an individual in the same class as those who crucified Jesus Christ, and by a direct implication, he was asserting that I would have crucified Jesus Christ had I been given the opportunity. Richard Roberts' indifference and inability to discern the profoundly serious nature of his statements, in relation to the position and authority of Jesus Christ as the sole judge of salvation, indicates that he does not understand the truly horrific nature of the assertions that he made and the accountability to God to which he has called himself, by assuming the place and authority of Jesus Christ which he does not have.

The issue is solely about what Richard Roberts says in relation to the truth of his statements and to the nature and character of God and Jesus Christ. In his statements of Monday night, he had no difficulty or concern about fabricating a scenario regarding the beliefs of an individual, a scenario that was absolutely false, and then claiming for himself authority to judge whether a professing believer knows God, which is a judgment reserved only to Jesus Christ, and then making salvation conditional on agreement with his particular teaching about healing. In the process, he changed the very nature of the gospel message and the requirements that the Scripture stipulates that God uses in order to grant salvation. Those are fundamentally serious errors that Richard Roberts needs to address quickly, because it is unacceptable that a person, who claims the position of a minister and revelator, would conduct themselves in that manner. Those are issues that transcend by light years any discussion regarding the nature of healing.

Richard Roberts employed a trick, used in debates to mislead the audience, called a "Straw Man" argument, by which he fabricated and contrived statements against his opponent and then proceeded to argue against those statements that he created. The undiscerning listener would believe that he was eloquently expounding the oracles of God and brilliant in arguing against his opponent, but he was only creating a diversion of smoke by arguing against his false assertions so the real issues could be ignored.

The other major issues are in relation to prophecy; the acceptance of the false prophecies of his father and his acceptance and participation in ministry with Benny Hinn and Kenneth Copeland, both of whom have spoken false prophecies and especially Kenneth Copeland who holds to possibly the greatest number of heretical teachings by any person who operates in the church today. Benny Hinn is probably the most high profile and documented false prophet, and Kenneth Copeland is probably the most high profile and documented teacher of heresy.

SEE:
Oral Roberts False Prophecies and the City of Faith
www.ondoctrine.com/10robero.htm#prophecies

Oral Roberts and His Revelation From God Regarding Jim Bakker
www.ondoctrine.com/10robero.htm#bakker

The False Prophecies of Benny Hinn
www.ondoctrine.com/10hinn.htm#prophecies

Kenneth Copeland
www.ondoctrine.com/10copela.htm

Since Richard Roberts is a professed believer in the gospel message, then the reality of his salvation is determined by the judgment of Jesus Christ and not myself, so I do not make and have not made any statement toward that end. What I do question are his beliefs and statements that come under the authority of the Scripture and change the nature and character of God and Jesus Christ who are revealed there. Healing is really not the issue, but is only one symptom of a much broader spectrum of issues and difficulties that entangle the doctrines and ministry of Richard Roberts.

Those are the issues that every believer who listens to Richard Roberts needs to consider, and they are the same which you must also consider and resolve. Where does the authority lie, in the words of Richard Roberts or in the Scripture as the word of God, and who judges the salvation of the living and the dead, Richard Roberts or Jesus Christ?

#56
Dear Gary:

Thanks for your response, and yes, you speak much truth in your words below relating to Scripture. And I agree with you that some of the things Richard Roberts said about your salvation is not for him to decide, but Jesus Christ alone. But I believe the point here is our relationship with Jesus and how he works through us individually. I'm always saddened when people in the body of Christ attack each other, accusing each other of things, and basically nullifying the message that God is placing through that person. I've had several people that don't know the Lord say "If that's how Christians love each other by tearing the other apart, I'll live life the way I am. At least I'm not a hypocrite."

Each of us must give an account of our words and actions on earth (Matt 12:36; Romans 14:12). So for the negative things that Richard has said or done, he alone will have to account for. The fruits or the lack of the visible blessings will be shown forth in a person's ministry based upon if God is really present.. I believe Roberts said that there has been over 96,000 documented healings in the past 8 years. Now while some I'm sure are questionable, there are others that have medical documentation. The fruit from the ministry he's been called to is coming forth. Have you with your words condemned him and his ministry, just as you have accused him of speaking falsely about your salvation? I don't mean to pick a fight, but just as there are some things that any person in ministry does not do well, and that is because of our human nature, which hangs on us until we die. Many of the things you mention in your article about him seem judgmental. Did you expect him not to respond in some fashion? I wish he would have talked with you face to face, however. Richard has his faults, I do to, and I'm sure you can search your own heart as well. God's ministry through Richard Roberts gives people hope (and I don't believe it is false hope). He never takes the glory for himself...he always gives the glory to God.

So maybe the next step is for you to call the Abundant Life Prayer Line (918-495-7777) and tell the person on the phone that you would like to talk with Richard face to face. See where it goes from there.

If indeed your vocation from God is to "root out heresy in the church," then may He bless your labors and point out the truth. If by some way you have errored in your understanding of the ministries you've mentioned below, then may the Lord show you that truth as well. In all things, I give the Lord thanks for you and for showing you the truth in his Word.
Iowa, United States

ON DOCTRINE NOTE:
The claimed 96,000 documented healings are figures that come out of the Oral Roberts Ministries, and, in relation to many of the testimonies that are presented, and especially many that are presented on the Daily Guide to Miracles e-mail, the definition of a miracle is quite often stretched beyond reality. However, those 96,000 represent just a small fraction of the claims of all ministries over many years who claim uncountable mi