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| CONVERSATIONS WITH A MORMON |
| Belief And Faith From a Mormon Perspective And A Reply As To Why It Originates From a Wrong Foundation |
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The Mormon Challenge Tuesday, July 29 I have been thinking a lot about how your approach the scriptures. As I have read the content of your site I can't help but notice that you are completely base[d] on belief only so I though I'd share with you some thoughts: Belief is not the same as knowledge, and belief is not the same as faith. Belief and Knowledge Example: In the Middle Ages people believed that earth was flat. However, the fact that they believed it was flat didn't make it true. Eventually the earth was proved to be of a round, spheric shape. In other words, when people obtained a knowledge that the earth was not flat, they didn't need the belief any longer as now they had the perfect knowledge that the earth is an sphere. From the above we may learn a few things: 1. By believing in something, no matter how sincere and fervent that belief is, it doesn't make the object of the belief true. In other words, even if someone believe that the earth is flat this will not cause you to fall off the earth, because you will never find the edge, as it doesn't exist, it is a false belief. 2. By believing in something that is not true, but being absolutely convinced of it, someone may keep going about trying to find evidences that what he/she believes is true even if that object of belief is proven to be incorrect. In other words, if you are absolutely convinced that your belief is true, you may select only certain facts or "evidences" that may indicate it is apparently true. For example, the Middle Age "Sages" would point to the fact that the place were they stood was flat, therefore the earth had gotten to be flat. 3. Believing in something that is true may lead you to eventually find it is true provided you are seeking for the truth. In other words, if you don't define your own belief as the final truth. 4. It requires an open mind and a certain amount of humility for someone to be able to recognize his/her beliefs are placed on an incorrect or partially correct principle. Therefore, one may believe fervently and sincerely on something, but not have the knowledge that that thing he/she believes is true. In other words, it is only a belief. Question: Does the above considerations apply to the belief in the Bible and belief in God? Answer: Absolutely yes. Belief and Faith Belief is not a synonym of faith. The scriptures say that even the demons believe. James 2: 19 has: "Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble." By this passage we know that believe is not enough, as it is not the same as faith. Otherwise, by saying that the devils believe, we would be saying they have faith, which could not be farther from the truth as they are devils precisely because they rejected faith. Question: What is faith, then? Faith is to have a hope, to have trust on things that are true. Heb 11:1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. So, first you believe, then you act on that belief. In other words, you do what that belief requires you to do. To work on that belief means you put your trust that the beliefs will lead to the knowledge of the truth. Example 1: The first time a child jumps into a swimming pool, his father is there waiting for him. He is hesitant, but the father encourages the child saying that he is there and that the water is soft and it will be ok. However, it is up to the child to jump. He believes his father. And he has seen others jumping. He has a belief that it will be ok and fun. All he has to do is jump. Eventually the child jumps. Why the child jumps? Because he trusted his father. In other words, he acted on his believe on the hope that the word of his father would be true (not having a knowledge of it). By acting he trusted that the word of his father was true, that he would be ok and that he would have fun. He had faith in his father's word. Now the child acquired a knowledge of his own that he didn't have before. Before he only believed he could jump and that it would be fun. Had he not trusted his dad, he would stay with his belief and never experience the fun or learn to jump into the water. He would not have that knowledge because he didn't exercise his faith. In other words, he would be around the pool saying I believe, I believe. The substance of things hope for the the boy was to jump. As far as he was concerned for him that was not seen before, he had never jumped before. Example 2: In Genesis we read that God commanded Abraham to go to the mount and sacrifice his only child, Isaac. Abraham promptly obeyed and took Isaac and wood an went to the mount to offer his son in sacrifice as commanded. He prepared an altar and put the wood and finally tied Isaac and placed him on top of the altar. He took his knife and proceeded to kill Isaac in sacrifice as commanded. As it ocurred with the example of the boy jumping on the swimming pool, Abraham acted on the belief that the command was in fact a command of God. He hoped and trusted on a true thing. Abraham could have stayed at the "edge of the swimming pool" and never jumped. He would keep his belief. But, since he would not act on it, that belief would serve him nothing. However, he acted on His belief in God, and because of that the Lord counted him as a righteous man. And his hope and trust in a true thing lead him to a knowledge of the goodness of God. And Abraham could say without a shadow of a doubt that God exists, He is trustful and merciful. He had that knowledge firsthand because he acted on his belief, hoping on a true thing, thus exercising faith. Belief and Knowledge In both the examples above, the personages acted on the belief by doing what their beliefs required of them. Acting on their belief meant to have a hope that what was believed was true and would come about. They didn't know whether it was going to come about or not, but since it was the boy's father who was telling him, he trusted. In the case of Abraham since it was God that commanded, he trusted. By trusting and going through with the act, they acquired a knowledge. Here is what the Bible says: John 17:3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent. Eternal life, Jesus says, it is to KNOW the true God and Jesus Christ. Not just believe. How do you know, I mean really know God? Believing is only the beginning. First, you need to believe in something that is true. Then you need to act on the belief, doing what the belief requires. Doing so, means that the belief leads you to faith. Having faith means that you hope and trust that God will show you the truth (the jumping). By exercising your faith, you will obtain the knowledge you need to gain eternal life. Now, this is not a one time thing, it requires a lifetime effort. You act upon your belief everyday, and as you develop and increase your faith, you learn new things everyday. And as Paul says, by keeping pressing on, you will eventually be perfect to the measure of the fullness of the stature of Christ. Which is eternal life. Therefore, truly knowing God. So Gary, I would like to invite you to act upon your belief that Jesus is the Savior. You believe in God, the devils do too. But they cannot transform that belief into faith. You can, by jumping into the water and not running around the pool saying you believe only. Or running around with the Bible, only > saying you believe. So read this promise and act upon it: Moroni 10:3-4 Behold, I would exhort you that when ye shall read these things, if it be wisdom in God that ye should read them, that ye would remember how merciful the Lord hath been unto the children of men, from the creation of Adam even down until the time that ye shall receive these things, and ponder it in your hearts. And when ye shall receive these things, I would exhort you that ye would ask God, the Eternal Father, in the name of Christ, if these things are not true; and if ye shall ask with a sincere heart, with real intent, having faith in Christ, he will manifest the truth of it unto you, by the power of the Holy Ghost. Believe that the above is true (and it is true) and act upon it. If you "jump," which means asking sincerely, wanting to know, I promise you'll be glad you did. You don't need to be afraid or take my word for it, you can go directly to your Father in Heaven and ask Him in the name of Christ. If you do, the knowledge you obtain will confirm all the truths that you already believe in. On Doctrine Reply I understand very well the difference between belief and faith. The difficulty that you are having is understanding that belief and faith happen, and are authentic, genuine and legitimate expressions toward God that can and are accepted by Him, outside the confines of the Mormon church. You limit the validity of belief and faith to members of the Mormon church, which is the same position advocated by Joseph Smith, who claimed that every other organization and teacher was apostate, except for the Mormon church, which he claimed to restore through the Mormon gospel found in the Book of Mormon. Since it is claimed that the entire Christian world went into apostasy somewhere around 300-400 A.D., then for over 1400-1500 years, the world was without the testimony of the gospel of Jesus Christ and the Mormon gospel was buried in the Hill Cummorah waiting for the appearance of Joseph Smith. Even though the apostle John and the three Nephites were alive on the earth and charged with preaching the gospel, they failed to maintain the legitimate church in any place in the world and also failed to keep copies of the Scripture, which was then changed and rewritten by the "corrupt Catholic priests". In Matthew 16:18, Jesus Christ made a specific statement and a specific promise when He said that the gates of hell would not prevail against the church, so how does a prophet "restore" that which Jesus Christ said would not fail? What you believe about the necessary existence of the Mormon church is not supported in the Scripture, but only by the pronouncements of your prophets. As I mentioned before, a belief in continuing revelation by your prophets takes you to places where you do not really wish to go, because their claims make God and Jesus Christ into liars, which invalidates the revelations that those prophets have claimed to have received. For you, the gospel message is an integral part of the Mormon church and its prophets, who present an ever-changing gospel message that demands a standard of performance from you that you cannot accomplish. The Mormon church and its prophets, as a unique and singular organization of offices, is considered to be the only legitimate and valid vehicle through which God can and does express His will for humanity, and to follow its precepts is said to be the only manner in which a person can attain to the position in the afterlife which is defined as exaltation to godhood. There are huge problems with those assertions, a number of the substantive issues we have been discussing in these communications, because the doctrines in Orthodox theology and the Mormon church are completely and profoundly different from each other and those differences cannot be accounted for by the claims of the Mormon church regarding apostasy and changes to the Bible which it cannot substantiate. The first issue we discussed in relation to your initial communication was my definition of "Orthodox" which I defined as follows, "I use the term Orthodox in relation to biblical doctrine, not in relation to an organization. If the doctrine conforms to the biblical imperatives and exists within the pages of the Bible and can properly be demonstrated that it is supported in the Bible, then it is Orthodox." The first sentence defines the main issue in relation to Orthodox doctrine, but also applies to belief and faith, which I would also state is "not in relation to an organization". For you, there must be a literal, physical organization on earth for you to belong, that gives validity to your belief and faith, and that organization must be the Mormon church and no other. It is your baptism into the organization of the Mormon church that gives you the warrant to exercise your faith and to accomplish the works specified by the church, by means of the performance of which you qualify for your exaltation. Your church organization acts as a mediator between you and the attainment of your spiritual quest, because it is either a barrier or a doorway for your faith; it is a barrier if you exercise your faith outside of membership in the organization, or it is a doorway if you are a member through baptism. You first accept Joseph Smith as the prophet of the restoration, then the Mormon church and all of its doctrines and necessary rules of performance, of which belief and faith in Jesus Christ is only one of many. Your belief and faith in the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ is not a part of your exaltation, because you accomplish that on your own by the works that you do in relation to the pronouncements of the church which then qualify you for godhood, so your exaltation is actually a faith in your own goodness and ability to realize your eventual godhood. Unfortunately, you do not actually know if you have done enough to attain that end, but you believe it anyway. The idea that you can approach God or Jesus and obtain forgiveness for sins and be reconciled to God outside the organization of the Mormon church is totally foreign to you, because you believe that the church is the intermediary between you, the deity and your exaltation. Orthodox theology rejects any organization as being a mediator, because it is the individual person who first exercises faith in Jesus Christ as a result of the action of the Holy Spirit, and who becomes right with God by the mediatorial efficacy of the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ, not through the requirements of an organization or by the power of good works, which are what you should be doing anyway. In Orthodox theology, the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ provides for the remission of all sins through repentance and faith only. In Mormon theology, remission of sins is conditional, and has no efficacy apart from the works that you accomplish as precepts of the Mormon church established through the Living Prophets. Repentance and faith has no effect outside the performance of your works which are your actual qualifications for exaltation and godhood. In Orthodox theology, it is Jesus Christ who is the mediator, not the church that He is building. The church is composed of those who have been mediated by Him, not composed of a physical organization of offices and duties by which the organization mediates faith toward God and through which exaltation can be accomplished. You believe that the good things you do, in relation to following the precepts of the church, commend you to God and make up for the sins you commit during your life. No matter how good or meritorious an act may seem to be in and of itself, it does not bring an individual into a right relationship to God. because people are supposed to do all good things as the normal conduct of their lives. Conduct cannot be meritorious if it is something that should be done as the norm. Mormon theology presents conduct as the qualifying factor in order to obtain grace, while orthodox Christian theology presents grace as the qualifying factor that allows an individual to engage in right conduct. The often quoted verse from the Book of Mormon sets a standard that you do not realize, "For we labor diligently to write, to persuade our children, and also our brethren, to believe in Christ, and to be reconciled to God; for we know that it is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do."If Mormons wish conduct to be the standard, then they must also understand that absolute perfection of conduct is the actual standard, which is stated in the verse quoted above, because the qualification is "all we can do" which means that every possible constituent of conduct must be satisfied before grace can have any effect. There can be no failure in any aspect of life, whether it be spiritual or moral because failure at any point invalidates the criteria of "all". There can be no lapse of effort at any point by which you do not accomplish perfection of performance in relation to the task at hand, whether it be prayer, study, obedience, church attendance or any other aspect of which your performance is a part. That is an onus that is impossible to bear and impossible to accomplish, which is why the Bible has a different criteria and is why the grace provided through Jesus Christ is actual grace rather than "earned" grace which is no grace at all. Grace in the Mormon church is a progressive process, based on the quantity and quality of your works. If your works are not quantitatively and quantitatively up to standards (whatever those standards are defined by the church to be - which is actually perfection) then you do not receive the greatest measure of grace in order to remit your sins. In that case, you cannot be exalted and must be content with a lower level existence in the heavenly realm. Like all other biblical terms, Grace is defined differently in Mormon theology, actually conforming to merit based on accomplishment. In other words, grace is deserved based on your worth as determined by your works. You are your own measure of the quantity of grace that you receive. Biblical grace is unmerited favor and results in good works and is not a result of good works. That is a very big difference. The grace of God and Jesus Christ is favor granted because of the perfect performance of Jesus Christ as applied to the imperfect and undeserving performance of human beings. If Mormons wish to be deserving because of their own goodness and righteousness, then the perfect life of Jesus Christ was of no value. "For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast. For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them."In Mormon doctrine, it is the ever changing precepts of the organization that defines the individual as being part of the church, while in Orthodox theology it is the Scripture that defines the content of the gospel message, the acceptance and application of which defines whether an individual is in the faith and therefore is part of the organism of the church, not an organization. The Mormon church does not accept the biblical concept that the body of believers constitute the structure of the church rather than a physical organization being the church to which an individual must join. The New Testament church was not a physical organization that a person must join in order to have faith in Jesus Christ or to validate their actions on behalf of Him. Jesus stated the case Himself, when His disciples attempted to implement the same claim, by the Mormon church, that a person must belong to a specific group: "John answered Him, saying, 'Master, we saw one casting out devils in Thy name, and he followeth not us: and we forbad him, because he followeth not us.' But Jesus said, 'Forbid him not: for there is no man which shall do a miracle in my name, that can lightly speak evil of me. For he that is not against us is on our part.'"Since Jesus did not enforce or establish the standards for membership in His church that have been established by the Living Prophets of the Mormon church, then the prophet who comes along after Jesus and establishes those principles should be scrutinized very carefully regarding his conduct, motives and credentials, and any subsequent prophets who make the same claims should receive equal scrutiny. When you surrender the destiny of your soul to the pronouncements of men, who have never presented the credentials of a prophet, revelator or apostle, then you place yourself in perilous circumstances. In the Mormon church, the pronouncements of the Living Prophet have more authority and are more important to the church than the Standard Works. The Living Prophets embody the entire authority of the Mormon church, superseding any other authoritative individuals or documents. Most Mormons are comfortable with the concept of the Living Prophet who might receive a revelation here and there and provide leadership for the organization, but do not understand the scope of his authority over the changing precepts of the gospel message, that has been assigned to the office by the Living Prophets themselves. ". . . when compared with the living oracles those books are nothing to me; those books do not convey the word of God direct to us now, as do the words of a Prophet or a man bearing the Holy Priesthood in our day and generation. I would rather have the living oracles than all the writing in the books."The Living Prophet is more important to the Mormon church than any dead prophet, "The living prophet has the power of TNT. By that I mean 'Today's News Today.' . . . Therefore the most important prophet so far as you and I are concerned is the one living in our day and age to whom the Lord is currently revealing."Those views could all change if the Living Prophet received a revelation reinstating the dead prophets and the authority of the Standard Works. It is all a matter of convenience in relation to the Living Prophets, who establish their own position. How easy is it to claim infallibility or absolute authority simply by making a statement that God gave a revelation to that effect? The leadership of the church claim that the Living Prophet will never lead the church astray, "I say to Israel, the Lord will never permit me or any other man who stands as president of the Church to lead you astray. It is not in the program. It is not in the mind of God." "I remember years ago when I was a Bishop I had President [Heber J.] Grant talk to our ward. After the meeting I drove him home . . . Standing by me, he put his arm over my shoulder and said: 'My boy, you always keep your eye on the President of the Church, and if he ever tells you to do anything, and it is wrong, and you do it, the Lord will bless you for it.' Then with a twinkle in his eye, he said, 'But you don't need to worry. The Lord will never let his mouthpiece lead the people astray.'"I am sure president Grant had a twinkle in his eye as he made a statement that he knew was not true. As I mentioned before, Brigham Young originated and taught the false and heretical Adam-God doctrine, and God never stepped in to prevent him from introducing his teaching or ever spoke to him regarding his error, and several generations of faithful Mormons worshipped the wrong god. However, I guess that believing false doctrine and never questioning the prophet who teaches false doctrine is considered to be a laudable action by God worthy of great blessing. How is it that believing a false prophet and worshipping a false god is conduct that is commended by God? Even president Grant didn't deal with the heretical doctrine on his watch, so his comment about not leading the people astray means that there is a very big difference between what the prophets say and what they do. Again, there is the issue of the Book of Abraham, which Joseph Smith claimed to have translated but has been shown to be a false translation. Yet, it was installed as scripture and approved by a general vote of the church and no one including the current Living Prophet has declared it to be false. The issue of continuing revelation comes around full circle once again when it is realized that the only prohibition against persons of black skin from holding the priesthood was found in the false translation of the Book of Abraham. But, it was said that it was a result of a revelation from God stating He removed the prohibition that He established, that now persons of black skin are now allowed to hold the priesthood. However, God is made into a liar by admitting to a prohibition that He did not institute but was established by the false claims of Joseph Smith. How is it that Joseph Smith escapes the charge of lying, and God is given the blame and is made into the liar? Is Joseph Smith so powerful that his moral failures trump God? It is a one way street for the Living Prophet who demands strict accountability from the membership but does not have to be accountable to them. But, how is it that Joseph Smith is defended on the issue and God is not? God is not a liar by His own statement, Numbers 23:19, so any translation by inspiration that results in God being defined as a liar is a false translation, and red flags should be flying indicating that something has gone very wrong with the pronouncement of the Living Prophet. The first Living Prophet seems to have escaped responsibility for a false translation, because 15 future Living Prophets have failed to recognize the problem or address the issue, which should raise more red flags as to why that is the case. Since the Living Prophet can receive revelation on any subject, either spiritual or temporal, he can also speak to any of those issues by the authority of his office, and, since it is not a requirement that a revelation be identified by stating, "Thus saith the Lord," then it is not possible to differentiate between the manner and types of revelations, since the "still small voice" revelations are simply incorporated into the teachings without any reference to their origin and it is not possible to know if a specific teaching is being presented as an actual revelation or simply the opinion of the prophet. Under those circumstances, you are left with accepting everything that the Living Prophet says, hoping that he has not made an error or deliberately led you astray. If the prophet is incapable of leading the church astray, then he is claiming infallibility, the same as the Pope. Even Brigham Young claimed that he would never lead the church astray, but he did exactly what he said could never happen: "The Lord Almighty leads this Church, and he will never suffer you to be led astray if you are found doing your duty. You may go home and sleep as sweetly as a babe in its mother's arms, as to any danger of your leaders leading you astray . . ."Mormon believers must take the power and authority of the Living Prophet to its logical end, which is where the prophets actually wish to go and where they wish the members of the church to go, which is to exercise the ultimate authority over the destiny of the individual, that cannot be questioned. The authority of the Living Prophet allows him to reject any previous scripture, revelation or teaching of a dead prophet as being irrelevant, even if their current teachings or revelations are in conflict with those previous teachings or revelations or make the previous prophet(s) or deity to be liars. Everything said or written prior to the current Living Prophet is irrelevant in a theology of continuing revelation, and you yield yourself to a man who will take you wherever he wishes, even though he presents no prophetic or apostolic credentials to support his claims. You place yourself at the mercy of his pronouncements, because you absolve yourself of personal responsibility for accepting those pronouncements if they are false, and you cannot exercise any recourse because none is allowed, since to question any pronouncement of the Living Prophet is to start you on the road to apostasy and possibly place you in the company of the sons of perdition. That is blind obedience. The Catholic church makes the same claims as the Mormon church, only with different terminology. Salvation in the Catholic church is said to be mediated through the organization of the Catholic church by means of baptism into the church and through the functions of the priests who have the ability to absolve sins. The Pope is also said to be the Vicar of Christ, who acts under the direct authority of and in the place of Jesus Christ and receives direct revelation in order to accomplish the duties of his office. Joseph Smith established himself as the prophet (the Mormon version of the Vicar of Christ), who was the direct representative of God by means of continuing direct revelation by which he accomplished the duties of his office, and that prophetic office along with all of its power and authority remains in the church today. "God made Aaron to be the mouth piece for the children of Israel, and He will make me be god to you in His stead, and the elders to be mouth for me; and if you don't like it, you must lump it."Either the Catholic church or the Mormon church or both churches are false, so the issue comes down to a judgment factor that must be based on some type of criteria. You claim as your criteria the subjective nature of your feelings of well-being in relation to what you wish to believe about Joseph Smith and the Mormon church, which you define as your testimony. However, like I have mentioned before, untold thousands of Mormons accepted the false Adam-God teaching of Brigham Young, and their internal "burning bosoms" were also their confirmations of what they believed was the truth being taught by the Living Prophet, which has now been declared to be heresy by another Living prophet. If you accept the claims by the prophets themselves that they are incapable of leading the church astray or give false prophecies, then there is the issue in which there is a procedure for removing the Living Prophet if the "President of the High Priesthood shall transgress," Doctrine and Covenants, 107:81-83. Brigham Young qualified for that action, but he was never brought to accountability and has never been charged as teaching heresy, even though he did. Joseph Smith admitted to speaking a false prophecy when he stated that the attempt to sell the copyright of the Book of Mormon would be successful, when it failed, so he qualified as a false prophet according to Deuteronomy 18:20-22. Instead of telling me that I must act on my belief in Jesus Christ as the Savior, you should first define what you mean by being the "Savior" and what you mean by "salvation". We do not have any agreement on the definition of salvation that is provided through Jesus Christ. Jesus Christ is not your Savior in the same manner that He is my Savior, because you save yourself by following the precepts of the Mormon church, which is a system of personal works. Salvation for you is resurrection, to which every human being will attain, but for you it is resurrection to one of the two higher of the three levels of heaven. You hope that you will be resurrected to the highest level and then to your exaltation to Godhood. That is not salvation to me, and my faith in Jesus Christ as the Savior has nothing to do with a desire to become a god, to father spirits in the next life and to have wives who are pregnant for eternity. As I noted in the first paragraph of this note, you limit the validity of faith to those who have been baptized into the Mormon church, therefore you claim that I believe but do not have faith, since you do not believe that faith can be exercised or is valid outside membership in the physical organization of the Mormon church, a position that I wholly reject. No organization can be a mediator between an individual, their faith and God. Faith is expressed directly to God and Jesus Christ without any need for validation by a person being a member of an organization or possessing a priestly office. You are very much in error to presume that I have no faith, because that is not the case. My faith is in Jesus Christ directly and His ability to forgive all sins by the application of real and unmerited grace by which I can be at rest and peace in the promise that He has given in Matthew 11:29-30, "Take my yoke upon you and learn from Me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. For My yoke is easy and My burden is light." The Mormon Challenge Monday, September 15 Hello Gary, You have written: Doctrine and Covenants, 107:81-83. Brigham Young qualified for that action, but he was never brought to accountability and has never been charged as teaching heresy, even though he did. Joseph Smith admitted to speaking a false prophecy when he stated that the attempt to sell the copyright of the Book of Mormon would be successful, when it failed, so he qualified as a false prophet according to Deuteronomy 18:20-22."Comments: The Lord has said that before a prophet can lead the people astray he'd remove him from his position. Therefore, there is no necessity of any procedure as the Church of Christ is not a democracy. The prophet is not elected by the people, he is chosen and called by God. So, if he deviates from the path, the One that put him there will remove him. Plus as I have written several times to you, LDS relies on direct revelation from God. Therefore, when I new prophet is called, the members receive a testimony of that from the Spirit. I know because I have received that testimony and simply new that the prophet was called by God. By the same token since we have direct personal revelation from God, if we keep ourselves worthy we will always be in the right path, we will not be decived because the Spirit of the Lord will be constantly with us. So as you can see the safeguards are in place. It all hinges on direct revelation from God and not on our own intellect only. As Paul has said the Spirit of the Lord bear witness to our spirit about the truth. So, as long as one continues to be righteous he/she will not be led astray. You have written: "Instead of telling me that I must act on my belief in Jesus Christ as the Savior, you should first define what you mean by being the "Savior" and what you mean by "salvation". We do not have any agreement on the definition of salvation that is provided through Jesus Christ. Jesus Christ is not your Savior in the same manner that He is my Savior, because you save yourself by following the precepts of the Mormon church, which is a system of personal works. Salvation for you is resurrection, to which every human being will attain, but for you it is resurrection to one of the two higher of the three levels of heaven. You hope that you will be resurrected to the highest level and then to your exaltation to Godhood. That is not salvation to me, and my faith in Jesus Christ as the Savior has nothing to do with a desire to become a god, to father spirits in the next life and to have wives who are pregnant for eternity."Comments: Well, I don't need to define that for you as you have the Bible and you can read and pray to God in the name of Jesus Christ, humbly to confirm it to you. We believe exactly what the Bible says about Salvation and the Savior as long its translation is correct. Now, we don't believe in YOUR interpretation of the Bible. If you ask God in the name of Christ He will help you to understand what Savior is and Salvation means. By what you have written above I know you don't understand what LDS stands for on those principles. If you knew the doctrine of the true gospel of Christ you'd know that there is no other name under heaven through which we can be saved other than Jesus Christ. Here are some thoughts on the principle: Jesus Christ has died for all, not just the LDS. He has died for all those that were, are, and will be born upon this earth. The purpose of His sacrifice was to reconcile us with the Father by: Giving us immortality and providing us with the opportunity to be washed clean from our sins. When Adam transgressed and was banished from the Garden, two things occurred there. One is that he became a mortal, his body became corruptible, as God said it would return to the dust. That is called temporal death, or physical death. The other is that he died spiritually because he was banished from the presence of God. Anyone that is banished from the presence of God is dead spiritually. That is called spiritual death. So, by becoming mortal and being banished from the presence of God, Adam passed that on to all his descendants. So we all die and we all are not in the presence of God because we are all imperfect and impure, mankind is dead spiritually. By paying the price required by the law, Jesus provided that all man can overcome the physical death. Jesus was the first to resurrect and thus provided that all of mankind, good or bad, will one day have immortal bodies. The spirit will be reunited to our immortal bodies. That is called resurrection. Also, Jesus provided a way for us to overcome the spiritual death. In other words, if we so choose, we can go back to the presence of God again provided that we repent from our sins so the atonement of Jesus can have the effect of reviving us spiritually. So, as we repent, are baptized and receive the Holy Ghost we are again ready to be in the presence of God, and indeed, through faith we can be in His presence even without leaving this earth, Jesus promised that. It is possible to be in His presence if we have sufficient faith after we repent and are born of the water and the Spirit. The blood of Jesus provides for that. As for women being pregnant in heaven you are simply showing you don't understand the scriptures. I really don't know were you got that fable from. Being pregnant is something that belongs to this mortal life. I believe that for those that become like Father in Heaven, that is, gods, with power to create spirit children, it would not involve pregnancy as a spirit has no physical body. As for becoming gods, you would be surprised to learn that Jesus has being called the King above all gods. Regardless of your interpretation, if there is a King above all gods, there should necessarily exist a kingdom of gods. Please see Psalms 95:3. See also Psalms 82:1, which is quoted by Jesus Himself in the New Testament. If you doubt a man can become a god just read Ephesians 4:13. Paul says the we can "come to the unity of faith and the knowledge of the Son of God unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ." Well what is to be a perfect man other than be like the resurrected Christ who is God? What is the fulness of the stature of Christ, isn't to be a god as Jesus is a God? In Matthew 5:48 Jesus said: "Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect." How can one be perfect even as the Father and not be a god? To be perfect like the Father means to be a god. This is simple logic. On Doctrine Reply I do not understand your explanation regarding my statements about prophets leading the church astray. The church actually does vote on whether to accept proposed doctrines or statements as Scripture. Of course the church is not a democracy, but whether it is or is not a democracy is not the issue. The issue is that Doctrine and Covenants 107:81-84 exists and is Scripture, so you must deal with the problem that it claims can occur in the church, which is that a Prophet or General Authority can transgress and should be removed. Apostles have actually been removed for heresy or misconduct, but no President has been removed, although as the originator and proponent of the heretical Adam-God doctrine, Brigham Young, should have been removed. President Wilford Woodruff directly affirmed and taught the doctrine also, so he would have been another candidate. There is a proper procedure to be used in case it becomes a necessity. The procedure does not include participation by the church membership at large, but by the leadership in concert. Doctrine and Covenants 107:81-84 reads as follows: 81 There is not any person belonging to the church who is exempt from this council of the church.That is an ecclesiastical procedure, claimed to have been established by revelation from God. Although the church votes to accept a new prophet, the church at large does not vote in relation to the removal of a prophet or general authority. Since the procedure was said to have been given by direct revelation from God, then it would have been a pointless revelation if a prophet would never engage in a transgression requiring his removal, since there is no statement excluding the infallible prophets from accountability. It must not only be assumed that the possibility exists that a prophet would transgress, but there would actually be a prophet or prophets that would transgress requiring the procedure to be implemented, otherwise the revelation would again be pointless. The reality is, that the members who rejected Brigham Young's teaching as heresy are not here to defend their testimonies, which apparently were much more trustworthy than those who accepted his teaching. Yet, their more accurate testimonies are denied by the Presidency because Brigham Young has not been declared to be a heretic. Your testimony may give you warm feelings about Brigham Young, but that is the problem when you use your emotions as the validation of truth or error, especially when the error turns out to be heresy and you still feel good about the perpetrator. What ever you may think has been overruled by president Kimball, who declared his doctrine to be heresy. If the doctrine was heresy under the watch of president Kimball to the point that he declared it to be so, then it was heresy when originated and taught by Brigham Young and continued under the tenure of Wilford Woodruff, yet God did not remove either of them before they could teach and affirm a doctrine that led many members astray and caused them to worship a false God. I understand your attempt to justify why God would not have removed Brigham Young, and you fall back on the assertion of a testimony to the church that Brigham Young was a true prophet, but others had a testimony that he was not, yet the doctrine that he taught was heresy and God did not act. The safeguards that are in place are only your subjective emotional reaction to what you hear in relation to what you wish to believe. You must presume that those who believed Brigham Young's false doctrine did not keep themselves worthy, and as a consequence they did not receive the direct personal revelation from God that kept them on the right path, so it was their own fault that they were deceived. If that is the case, then why are the ones who did not believe his doctrine, and presumably kept themselves worthy, not confirmed as to their belief by Brigham Young being declared a heretic? The blame is shifted from Brigham Young to those who believed his teachings in order to preserve his status as a true prophet. However, if keeping one's self worthy is the criteria, then Brigham Young did not keep himself worthy either and he was the prophet, so why wasn't he accountable? If he was unworthy because he was speaking falsehood about the very nature and person of God, how is he worthy to be a prophet? God could not have given him a revelation to correct his false teaching? What type of conduct and how far must it go for a prophet to be accountable if heresy isn't a sufficient cause? Whatever your personal views might be on the nature of the conduct of those who believed Brigham Young really are not relevant, because the major issues are the actual heretical teaching by the prophet himself, the fact that God did not remove him before he was able to introduce the teaching into the church, and the fact that it was not until 1976 that the doctrine was declared to be heresy. When things go wrong, the common Mormon believer is said to be the problem, while the highest Prophet escapes to his exaltation without even a censure. As I have mentioned before, that was Bruce McConkie' s defense of the prophets and general authorities, including himself, in relation to persons of black skin receiving the priesthood and the statements that had been made opposing that possibility, that were all based on the fabricated translation of the Book of Abraham by Joseph Smith that was canonized as Scripture, when it was not. The same safeguards that you note, were in place then and it all went wrong in relation to what was being taught and canonized, and the prophets never knew the difference or never admitted to knowing the difference. There are three questions that you must answer honestly within yourself: 1. Why was Doctrine and Covenants 107-81-84 not invoked in relation to Brigham Young, since no one in the church is exempt from the council of the church and the justice and laws of God? 2. Why didn't God remove Brigham Young? 3. Why wasn't Brigham Young declared to be a heretic by president Kimball? I am intrigued that you consider the teaching that the Heavenly Mother becomes pregnant and births spirits, to be a fable or that you don't know where the idea originated. What do you consider the terms, "eternal increase" or "continuation of the seeds" to mean? Virtually all of your beliefs about the godhead and the current Mormon doctrine about salvation, originated with Joseph Smith and were expressed in the King Follett Discourse in 1844. Joseph Smith said that his idea was received by revelation of Jesus Christ through the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, so you cannot use your idea that Gods create spirits, because Joseph Smith removed that option, also stated in the King Follett Discourse: "I want to reason more on the spirit of man; for I am dwelling on the body and spirit of man - on the subject of the dead. I take my ring from my finger and liken it unto the mind of man - the immortal part, because it had no beginning. Suppose you cut it in two, then it has a beginning and an end; but join it again, and it continues one eternal round. So with the spirit of man. As the Lord liveth, it it had a beginning, it will have an end. All the fools and learned and wise men from the beginning of creation, who say that the spirit of man had a beginning, prove that it must have an end; and it that doctrine is true, then the doctrine of annihilation would be true. But if I am right, I might with boldness proclaim from the house-tops that God never had the power to create the spirit of man at all. God himself could not create himself.You have adopted a different idea regarding the origin of spirits, which involves the creative power of God, which the Mormon God does not possess. The Mormon God organizes existing matter into different structures, but he cannot create new material. All material used by the Mormon God was in existence prior to the appearance of any man or any God. Spirits, in Mormon theology, have always existed, although not in their final spiritual form, but as the eternal entities that pre-exist man, God and the universe, and are unified into the spiritual entity as a result of the action of birth, the result of a sexual union between God and His wife. Obviously, there is a very large problem with that particular doctrine, because God and his heavenly wife are personages of tabernacle, but their babies are personages of spirit. Also, there is the problem that when God had sexual relations with Mary who was also a person of tabernacle at the time, the result was the tabernacle of Jesus Christ and not another spirit child. Nevertheless, that is what has been the historical position of the church, which you cannot deny. "Our spirit bodies had their beginning in pre-existence when we were born as the spirit children of God our Father. Through that birth process spirit element was organized into intelligent entities."Apostle McConkie further explained the concept when he wrote about the existence of the Eternal Mother: "Implicit in the Christian verity that all men are the spirit children of an Eternal Father is the usually unspoken truth that they are also the offspring of an Eternal Mother. An exalted and glorified Man of Holiness (Moses 6:57) could not be a Father unless a Woman of like glory, perfection, and holiness was associated with him as a Mother. . .The concept was explained by Apostle Orson Pratt during the period of Brigham Young's presidency: "In the Heaven where our spirits were born there are many God, each one of whom has his own wife or wives, raises up a numerous family of sons and daughters. . . each father and mother will be in a condition to multiply forever and ever. As soon as each God has begotten many millions of male and female spirits, and his Heavenly inheritance becomes too small, to comfortably accommodate his great family, he, in connection with his sons, organizes a new word, after a similar order to the one which we now inhabit, where he sends both the male and female spirits to inhabit tabernacles of flesh and bones. . .General Authority Milton R. Hunter wrote the following in a more modern time: ". . . Joseph explained. . . that the Gods were to be parents of spirit children just as our Heavenly Father and Mother were the parents of the people of this earth." Milton R. Hunter, The Gospel Through the Ages, 1958, p. 120You can also visit the official LDS website: "Every person is literally a son or a daughter of God, having been born as a spirit to Heavenly Parents before being born to mortal parents on the earth (Heb. 12: 9)." www.scriptures.lds.org/gs/s/84The very old Mormon hymn states the following: "I had learned to call thee Father,Again, you do not seem to be on the same page as church doctrine, or perhaps you really do not know the historical Mormon explanation for the origin of your spirit by means of birth by the heavenly mother. In relation to your concept of "perfection," I have noted the following in a reply to another Mormon when discussing the subject of the ante-Nicene fathers: "The Mormon teaching is that exaltation results in receiving all the attributes of the father God that are defined in Mormon theology which are considerably less substantial and enduring than those of the God of the Bible. You apply the concept of "perfection" in relation to the origins of humanity as procreated beings within a race of gods, and conclude that "perfection" is to become perfect by obtaining all of the attributes of the father god from which they are literally descended. The root difficulty is that Mormon theology proposes and affirms that God, the universe and human beings are made of the same substance that is preexistent even to God, because the Mormon God does not create, he organizes existing matter in conjunction with His sons. In Mormon theology, the substance of matter is animate as a living organism, composed of living entities that pre-exist man, God and matter itself. However, in Orthodox theology, the substance of matter is inanimate and it is God who is preexistent to everything and creates ex-nihillo - from nothing, the universe and human beings. The origin of human beings is not as spirits procreated by God, but as beings created by God that are not of the same substance or composition as God and do not inherit the fundamental attributes that make God to be God, and obtain only those attributes granted by Him through their adoption by Him as sons. All other theological differences derive from these two opposing world views as the basic core difference between Orthodox and Mormon doctrine that is irreconcilable . . ."You understand that you are applying a definition of "perfection" as being God, because that is what you wish to become, and is why you use Ephesians 4:13 in relation to a perfect man, which is the Mormon definition of God. You use the Mormon doctrine of the pre-existence as your foundation, since you have been taught that Jesus Christ also became a God, and He is exactly like you as your literal spirit brother, although Jesus Christ became a God in the pre-existence prior to becoming a man, as did the Holy Ghost, which is a reward that has been denied to ordinary Mormons. So things are quite backwards in relation to Ephesians 4:13. But there is a core problem, because the Jesus Christ of the Bible and of the Book of Mormon is not the same as found in the Mormon church today. There is a fundamental divide between biblical Orthodoxy and Mormon doctrine in relation to the nature and origin of God, Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit. Orthodox theology asserts that those beings have always been as they are now, a Trinitarian Godhead, for an eternity past. Although the Mormon church states that God is from everlasting, He has not been so in relation to his current place as God, since He first had to be a man before becoming a God, and as a man He was no different than any other man. You have been taught that God, Jesus Christ and the Holy Ghost are transitional and progressive as to their nature, since they have not always been gods, but were able to be elevated from the lesser to the greater by means of their own efforts, resulting in beings that are greater than the original as the sum of the original beings and their applied works. So, you presume that your efforts are works of righteousness that are sufficient to bring about your exaltation from the lesser to the greater, not just as becoming a better person, but as becoming a perfect being of God. You have missed the fact that verse 13 states, "Till we all come . . . unto a perfect man." But not all Mormons are exalted to godhood, so your interpretation has a major flaw. When you decide to exegete Scripture based on a predetermined outcome, then you violate the first, second and third cardinal rules of interpretation, which are context, context, context. You use Ephesians 4:13 in the attempt to define perfection as becoming a god, of which the entire chapter 4 of Ephesians says nothing. You redact the Scripture by taking the whole of Mormon exaltation theology and inserting it into a single verse which says nothing about that doctrine and then say the Bible supports your conclusion, and that is considered to be proper "interpretation". You then use your presumption that to be perfect can only refer to becoming a god, but in the process you miss the entire point of Ephesians 4, which is dealing with maturity in the faith, which is also the meaning of teleios, which is used as perfection. That is the reason the apostle Paul states: Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision [Gentiles] by that which is called the Circumcision [Jews] in the flesh made by hands:The "perfect man" in Ephesians 4:13 is the same "one new man" found in Ephesians 2:15, and refers to the body of the church in concert, as the result of the work of Jesus Christ "in himself" in order to make peace between the Jews and Gentiles, erasing the distinction between the two so "that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross." You think that the perfect and new man is you on your way to perfection and godhood through the measure of your works "in yourself," when it is the church that Jesus Christ is building, that will be perfected as a body by Jesus Christ in Himself, not you being perfected by yourself. through your imperfect works. You miss the context of Matthew 5:48, because you think that the statement of Jesus Christ was a command to become a God, which is a subject not even mentioned in the entire Sermon on the Mount. Again, the issue is context, context, context. You cannot simply insert your preconceived doctrine into a verse just because it feels good to do so. The entire Sermon on the Mount was a reciting of the standards of the Law in a practical and common format that could be understood in its most simple and practical form. Like the Law itself, Jesus Christ set before the audience the measure of the standards that God required if a person was to be justified before God by their works, and the standard was and is impossible to accomplish. It is a standard that requires absolute perfection of performance in relation to every point that Jesus Christ touched upon, and also perfection of attitude, true dedication, sincerity and love toward God (Matthew 6:1-24). So the command of Jesus, in relation to performance, is to be perfect in your performance and attitude, even to the point of being as perfect as God Himself. If you think that the works you are doing meet that standard, then I think you should consider just how Holy and perfect your God is if you believe that you can touch the measure of His perfection. There is no teaching about being exalted to godhood in the Celestial Kingdom either in the Bible or the Book of Mormon. As far as your comments about a "kingdom of gods," you don't find any teaching about that kingdom in the Bible, since the verses you referrence make no mention of that. There is no teaching about being exalted to godhood in the Celestial Kingdom either in the Bible or the Book of Mormon. I find it interesting that you reference Psalm 95:3, but you have overlooked Psalm 96:4-5: "For the Lord is great, and greatly to be praised: he is to be feared above all gods. For all the gods of the nations are idols: but the Lord made the heaven." (KJV)Like you have done with the Ancient of Days, the verses that define the person or persons who are being referenced are left out of the equation. I was wondering when you would finally get around to Psalm 82. Actually, Jesus Christ quoted Psalm 82:1 and 6 in His comments to the Jews who were the leaders, in John 10:33-34: "Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods? If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken . . ." (KJV)Those verses always come up in discussions with Mormons about exaltation theology and also with certain Christian sects such as the Word of Faith theology represented by the TV preachers, Kenneth Copeland, Benny Hinn, Creflo Dollar, Joyce Meyer and a host of others. I have presented a response as follows: Scripture speaks quite adequately for itself on the subject of who is a "god". Jesus makes the statement about 'gods' in John 10:34, which is a reference to Psalm 82:6-7 and the entire Psalm 82. The verses are as follows:Like I have said before, when you adopt a certain doctrine and a certain "interpretation" of Scripture, the doctrine and interpretation always take you to a specific end, which is generally much farther than you originally anticipated, and in this case if you wish to adopt Psalm 82 as your confirmation of godhood in the Bible, then you end up with an infinitude of corrupt and deviant gods and you become one of them. You have simply placed the whole of Mormon exaltation theology into verses where there is no mention of those doctrines. Those ideas are found only in the pronouncements of Joseph Smith in the King Follett Discourse and the Book of Moses which is his redaction of the creation account, in order make it look like scripture supported his claims. Again, both of those works represent the changing ideas of Joseph Smith regarding God and man, and reveal the fact that he changed his position from a single modalistic God, found in the Book of Mormon, to an infinite pantheon of god-men who will be spawned without end. The entire foundation of your belief is Joseph Smith and his claims of which he could provide no foundation other than he said they were true."I have said, 'Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the Most High. But you shall die like men, and fall like one of the princes.'" Psalm 82:6-7 (KJV). "Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods? 'If He called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the Scripture cannot be broken; Say ye of Him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou are blasphemest; because I said I am the Son of God?" John 10:34 (KJV)Jesus Christ refers to Psalm 82 as His foundation in John 10, so that is the verse that applies to the definition that is applied to "gods" and is the passage that defines who is said to be a "god". Psalm 82 is quite clear about who are called "gods" and the reference of Jesus Christ is quite clear that He used the persons who are called "gods" in Psalm 82 as His examples in John 10. The Mormon Challenge Monday, September 15 Hello Gary, You have written: "I understand very well the difference between belief and faith. The difficulty that you are having is understanding that belief and faith happen, and are authentic, genuine and legitimate expressions toward God that can and are accepted by Him, outside the confines of the Mormon church. You limit the validity of belief and faith to members of the Mormon church, which is the same position advocated by Joseph Smith, who claimed that every other organization and teacher was apostate, except for the Mormon church, which he claimed to restore through the Mormon gospel found in the Book of Mormon. Even though the apostle John and the three Nephites were alive on the earth and charged with preaching the gospel, they failed to maintain the legitimate church in any place in the world and also failed to keep copies of the Scripture, which was then changed and rewritten by the "corrupt Catholic priests".Comments: The LDS Church is not sectarist. We believe that God has called Joseph Smith as prophet not only for the members of the LDS Church. He is a prophet for the whole world, just like the ancient prophets. God has no respect of persons, all of us are His children and He wants all of us to go back to Him. The LDS Church doesn't detract other religions as all of them contain at least some of the truth from God. Truth can be found anywhere. Although truth can be found anywhere in the world, there is only one source of truth and that is God the Father Himself. When the LDS missionaries go around teaching the gospel they have a message of the restored gospel for every person they meet. They give the message if the person accepts to talk to them. However, they don't try to convince them of their errors or that they have to do this or that. They simply give the message and ask the person to ask God directly about the message whether it is from God. If the person is humble enough then s/he will pray to God and receive a testimony that the missionaries were speaking truth. LDS believes everyone can and are accepted by God when they express their faith sincerely and humbly. The evidence for that is, precisely, that LDS missionaries ask those they teach to pray to God about their message. When someone receives a testimony of the truth and wants to join the LDS Church, s/he is not asked to reject any truth they may have learned in his/her previous beliefs because all truths come from God. Therefore, if we reject any truth that has been learned in another religion we are rejecting God. So, when they join the church they, in fact, will be adding to what they already have learned and expand their knowledge of God. Therefore, LDS will not put any other religion down or make light of what they consider sacred. If an LDS member detract another religion s/he is not behaving in accordance to the teaching of the LDS doctrine. As for John and the three Nephites, they could not do anything if the people didn't want the truth. For example, I have been telling you to pray about the LDS message all along. There is nothing more I can do other than tell you to do that. I cannot force you to accept, this is not the plan of the Father, to force His children to accept the truth. They need to want to embrace the truth on ther own volition, their own free will. If people reject the Father, there is nothing He can do as he will not infringe on our freedom. You have written: Since it is claimed that the entire Christian world went into apostasy somewhere around 300-400 A.D., then for over 1400-1500 years, the world was without the testimony of the gospel of Jesus Christ and the Mormon gospel was buried and useless in the Hill Cummorah waiting for the appearance of Joseph Smith.Comments: There are many things written about the apostasy that happened in the primitive Church of Christ. But the truth is that the seeds of the apostasy was there from the beginning. Starting with the Savior Himself, who was rejected by the majority and by the leaders of the Jews. The apostasy didn't ocurr really around 300-400 AD. Most of the letters of Paul and others refer to creeping antichrists inside the church see: 1 John 2:18 "Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time." 1 John 4:3 "And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world." 2 John 1:7 "For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist. Thess 2:7 "For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way." The greatest evidence of all for the great apostasy is that, before the first century ended, all of the apostles and many of the leaders of the true Church of Christ had been killed, thus direct revelation from God to the Church ceased. Paul and the others had been warning the saints and may of the saints had been lead astray as different religious groups sprang up. You see at least one of them mentioned in the New Testament by Christ Himself. So by the 300s there was no true Church anymore, only vestiges of it. Leaders were scrambling to find written records of the apostle because, in their mind that was the way to have the truth to try to get them close to what the apostles taught. But the revelation of God had ceased with the death of the Apostles, the pure doctrines were gradually intermingled with greek philosophy and later on with superstition. So, yes, a dark period of 1400-1500 years came over the world where the antichrist reigned unopposed. Just look at the middle ages and you see that the truth was not on the earth otherwise that period would not have been so dark. So the process of the restoration of all things as predicted starts around the renascence with more enlightened men upon whom the Spirit of the Lord acted, such as Martin Luther, Calvin, Wycliff and may others (some of them were even killed) that somehow prepared the world for the restoration until Joseph Smith was called by God. Yes, what is called the Book of Mormon as contained in the golden plates was buried to be revealed in this dispensation to Joseph Smith. The book was written by ancient prophets with the purpose of convincing the descendants of Lehi/Efraim that God lives and that Jesus is the Christ. It was written specifically for our benefit today. Some of those prophets said that they were writing as if we were present. Yes, it needed to be in a specific time which would be appropriate for the gospel to be restored in a nation that protected the freedom of worship and would be so blessed as to be able to help it to be preached all over the world. This nation is the US, which God Himself has raised for His own purpose. Imagine if this was revealed in the middle ages or even during renascence: Joseph Smith would have been burned in a stake as sorcerer. Even been revealed in a country freer and more enlightened than any other in the world, he was persecuted and killed and the saints had to flee for their lives because the other "Christians" would not tolerate the teachings different of what they believed. As for John and the three Nephites, they could not preach the Gospel or reorganize the Church as the people rejected it. John himself was banished to an island for a long time, if that is not apostasy then what is. It is important to remember that the people that caused the apostles to be killed were not the governement as we normally think. These were people that had either being members of the church and didn't like what they taught or people outside the church that felt threatened by their teaching. If you look at how Joseph Smith was murdered you will see that it was not the government but many people that left the church and others that felt threatened by the LDS that would file suit against Joseph for any false pretext trying to get rid of him. That was the same in the first century. You have written: In Matthew 16:18, Jesus Christ made a specific statement and a specific promise when He said that the gates of hell would not prevail against the church, so how does a prophet "restore" that which Jesus Christ said would not fail? What you believe about the necessary existence of the Mormon church is not supported in the Scripture, but only by the pronouncements of your prophets. As I mentioned before, a belief in continuing revelation by your prophets takes you to places where you do not really wish to go, because their claims make God and Jesus Christ into liars, which invalidates the revelations that those prophets have claimed to have received.Comments: That is precisely why the scriptures have the term "restitution" and "restoration," because the church was not destroyed, but rejected. Restore means you already had those thing organized upon the earth but were rejected. So through Joseph God restore them to men, because now there people that will embrace them. If the church could be destroyed it would have to be rebuilt, but that is not the case. As the scripture says, the Church was chased to the desert where it would stay for a time and a season. Joseph Smith did gather what already existed, and received the keys of what had already been established on earth. For example, he receive the Aaronic Priesthood from John the Baptist, the Melchizedek Priesthood from Peter, James and John, the keys to turn the hearts of the children to the fathers and the father to the children from Elijah, other keys by Elias, etc. All of this was not redone again, they were restored because they had already been on the earth. Acts 3:21 "Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began." As you can see Paul says that God has spoke of the restoration by the mouth of His holy prophets since the world began. Therefore, not only Paul knew about the restoration but also all the prophets of God prophesied about it. You don't need to take my word for it just ask God if this is the restored gospel of Jesus Christ. If you do with a broken heart and a sincere desire to know, He will reveal that to you spirit and you will know without a doubt that Joseph Smith was prophet, the God lives and that Jesus is the Christ. On Doctrine Reply You are correct that the Mormon church does not consider itself to be sectarian. However, since it has been unable to demonstrate from a historical standpoint that it was the early church in the New Testament, and the Book of Mormon contains verbatim quotes from the King James translation of both the Old and New Testaments, then it will be considered to be a sect of Christianity by most people. Another point was that the church does not allow for a relationship with God, by which a person asserts that they have apprehended a gospel message outside of the Mormon church. The Mormon church claims to be the only repository of the gospel message and the only true restoration of the New Testament church which it defines as a physical organization, not a spiritual body. The Mormon church does not allow for the legitimate existence of any other church organization. There are sectarian off-shoots from the Mormon church, but the church does not recognize them as legitimate. The Mormon church itself is exclusive, claiming that the truth of God is expressed solely through the prophets of the Mormon church, reserving the origin of all truth and the mediation of that truth to the world within itself. Any other organization that is not the Mormon church is said to be heretical. Yes, the Mormon church extends its message for the world to accept, but that acceptance is conditional upon baptism which is membership in the organization of the Mormon church. The Mormon gospel message cannot be apprehended by any means outside of membership in the Mormon church organization and the performance of the duties specified by the church. The "restored gospel" that the Mormon church presents to the world today is not the gospel message found in the Book of Mormon, which was said to be the restoration of the fullness of the gospel message found in the New Testament church, but is the gospel message originated by the prophets that changed the gospel in the Book of Mormon to something other than what is found there. In relation to the truth that your missionaries present, the only valid response that the Mormon church will accept from a potential convert is the claim that God has revealed to the person that Joseph Smith is a true prophet from God and that the Mormon church is the only true church. At that point, the person must be baptized into membership in and accept the doctrines of the Mormon church for their faith to be acceptable and remission of their sins to be valid. There is no truth that a person can believe that will allow a person to achieve the objectives stated by the Mormon church in its gospel message outside of baptism into the Mormon church, because it claims that it is necessary to have the priesthood, which can only be conferred by the Mormon church. It is simply not true that the missionaries are presenting a restored gospel message that can be appropriated outside of membership in the Mormon church. No prophet of the church would tolerate a missionary who presented a gospel message that would allow the recipient to claim that God told them to join the Catholic church or the Methodist church or the Baptist church or any other group that stands outside membership in the Mormon church, because those churches are said to be heretical. The Mormon church would not allow any "truth" brought in by a convert from their previous religious association, if that "truth" did not conform to that defined in Mormon doctrine. Truth from any other spiritual source not conforming to current Mormon doctrine is denied by the Mormon church, because the Mormon church claims to be the sole repository and interpreter of all revealed spiritual truth. There is no spiritual truth outside the parameters of Mormon doctrine, and is the justification that Joseph Smith presented as the reason the Mormon church was being restored: "18 My object in going to inquire of the Lord was to know which of all the sects was right, that I might know which to join. No sooner, therefore, did I get possession of myself, so as to be able to speak, than I asked the Personages who stood above me in the light, which of all the sects was right (for at this time it had never entered into my heart that all were wrong)-and which I should join.Joseph Smith was very much of an exclusionist, as noted in this statement: "Will everyone be damned, but Mormons? Yes, and a great portion of them, unless they repent, and work righteousness" Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 119Joseph Smith also stated the following: "And this greater priesthood administereth the gospel and holdeth the key of the mysteries of the kingdom, even the key of the knowledge of God.It is interesting that Joseph Smith claimed to see God in the first vision and lived, even though he did not have the priesthood. But that is another subject. Apostle Orson Pratt stated the following: "Jesus made his appearance on the earth in the meridian of time, and he established his kingdom on the earth. But to fulfill ancient prophecies the Lord suffered that kingdom to be uprooted; in other words, the kingdoms of this world made war against the kingdom of God, established eighteen centuries ago, and they prevailed against it, and the kingdom ceased to exist. The great beast that John saw made war with it and prevailed against it, and human institutions, without prophets or inspired men, usurped the place of the ancient kingdom of God." Journal of Discourses, vol. 13, p. 125Apostle Orson Pratt said the following: "But who in this generation have authority to baptize? None but those who have received authority in The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints; all other churches are entirely destitute of all authority from God; and any person who receives baptism or the Lord's Supper from their hands will highly offend God; for He looks upon them as the most corrupt of all people. Both Catholics and Protestants are nothing less than the 'whore of Babylon' whom the Lord denounces by the mouth of John the Revelator as having corrupted all the earth by their fornication and wickedness. And any person who shall be so wicked as to receive a holy ordinance of the gospel from the ministers of any of these apostate churches will be sent down to hell with them, unless they repent of the unholy and impious act."Apostle James Talmage stated the following: "The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints proclaims the restoration of the Gospel and the re-establishment of the Church as of old, in this, the Dispensation of the Fullness of Times. Such restoration of re-establishment, with the modern bestowal of the Holy Priesthood, would be unnecessary and indeed impossible had the Church of Christ continued among men with unbroken succession of Priesthood and power since the 'meridian of time.' The restored Church affirms that a general apostasy developed during and after the Apostolic period, and that the primitive Church lost its power, authority, and graces as a divine institution, and degenerated into an earthly organization only... The evidence of the decline and final extinction of the primitive Church among men is found in scriptural record and in secular history."The apprehension of the Mormon gospel message by the convert comes with a price attached, and that price is baptism and membership into the Mormon church. The only truth that a person could bring with them from another religion, would be that which is confirmed by the Mormon prophets and taught within the parameters of the Mormon church. If a person brings with them any claim to truth that exists outside of those parameters, it is rejected as not actual or authoritative by the Mormon church. You are claiming that for 1400-1500 years, every single individual in the entire world was so reprobate of spiritual character that they would not accept the Mormon gospel message preached by the apostle John or the Three Nephites. What you are actually saying is that God did not send spirits to earth during that time who were refined, virtuous and worthy to receive the Mormon gospel message, because they did not distinguish themselves in the preexistence, and did not fight the battle against Satan in a noble manner. That is the core of the teaching as to why persons of black skin were denied the priesthood and persons with the lightest skin were granted the privilege of being born in a country where the Mormon gospel message was preached, and asserts that persons who accept the Mormon gospel message are superior spiritual entities who are more worthy to receive the Mormon gospel message as a result of their superior performance in the preexistence and their more purified and upright spiritual character. Apparently, God began sending those more refined spirits to earth just in time for them to receive the Mormon gospel message that God was able to restore through Joseph Smith, the most spiritually refined and responsive individual that He could find. But, that makes God the architect of the apostasy, because He sent spirits to earth for centuries that He knew would not accept the gospel, so it was an apostasy by His own design. You are using double speak by claiming that the apostasy was only a rejection and the church was not destroyed. I do not know where you have obtained your definition of apostasy, but it is not correct. Apostasy is not simply rejection, but it is first acceptance, second identification with and third repudiation which includes rejection. Those who were without the gospel message, because they never heard it, were not apostates, because they never accepted and repudiated the message. They were ignorant, but not apostate. Those who heard the message, but did not accept it, were not apostates either, because they did not accept and then repudiate the message. You stretch the meaning of apostasy beyond reason. I am sure that the Mormon church would like to modify its claims on that issue in order to appear to be more moderate, but that is not the historical position taken by the prophets and general authorities. "Nothing less than a complete apostasy from the Christian religion would warrant the establishment of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints."Again, you do not take your statements to their logical ends. Your statements actually disprove the premise that you are trying to establish. You claim that it is necessary for there to be in existence prophets and apostles for there to be a church, but you admit that the prophets and apostles either died or were killed, so, the priesthood could no longer be conferred by them. If that was the case, then the church did go out of existence, which you admit happened in the 300's, since the church is a physical organization on earth, perpetuated by the existence of the priesthood conferred by lineal descent. Without the priesthood, the church could not exist, because it is a physical organization of prophets, apostles and priests who did not exist, so, it was in fact destroyed. You claim that the apostle John and the Three Nephites had the priesthood, but "they could not do anything if the people didn't want the truth." So, I guess you are stating that the apostle John and the Three Nephites were the church as a quorum of 4? Are you saying that in the entire 1400 years there was not one single person who would accept the Mormon gospel message? The problem with the entire scenario that you create is the reality that it has no historical foundation. Since its inception, the Mormon church has been unable to present the evidence that the Mormon gospel message was taught in the New Testament church, that there was a total apostasy or that the Mormon gospel message was taught throughout history by the apostle John and the Three Nephites. The problem with the apostasy theory is the fact that it ended at the least 1000 years before Joseph Smith came on the scene. You admit the church went out of existence in the 300's, as a result of apostasy and upon the death of the last apostate, the apostasy ended, which would have been somewhere around the beginning of the 400's. After that, there were no more apostates, because "the people didn't want the truth." During a 1000 year period there was willful unbelief, but no apostasy, since there were no Mormon prophets preaching the Mormon gospel message, and the people had never heard or accepted the Mormon gospel message and then repudiated their beliefs. However, like the other claims regarding historical events in the Book of Mormon, the preaching of the apostle John and the Three Nephites has no historical foundation, although the continual preaching by four individuals for 1400 years who never died would have been a pretty spectacular news item. Perhaps they just didn't bother to preach, presuming no one would respond? Since the church did not exist, that is why the priesthood had to be restored by John the Baptist and the apostle John, although John the Baptist "restored" it unlawfully because he did not baptize Joseph Smith before granting it to him, and the apostle John never had the Melchizedek priesthood that he could restore, as I noted in a previous reply. The apostle John was exiled to the island of Patmos, and you state, "if that is not apostasy then what is"? My answer is, that is not an example of apostasy in any form. John was not exiled as a result of some type of apostasy, but a result of the actions of the Roman authorities. Those authorities were not apostates, because they had never embraced the gospel message and then repudiated and rejected it. They were pagan idolaters, but they were not apostate from the Christian church. They were polytheists, worshipping a pantheon of gods, including (can you believe it?) Caesar himself as the human god on earth. It would appear that current Mormon doctrine is much closer to Roman exaltation theology and polytheism than Orthodox Christianity is to Greek and Roman philosophy, and that is an issue that I will leave for you to resolve. However, I have only laid one foundation that shows the fallacy of your thinking on the issue of the total apostasy. The major difficulty is that the claim of a total apostasy contradicts the Book of Mormon on the subject, in relation to the ministry of the Three Nephites. Although it is not revealed that the apostle John did not receive any indication from God that his ministry would be successful, the same was not the case with the Three Nephites. "And it shall come to pass, when the Lord seeth fit in his wisdom that they shall minister unto all the scattered tribes of Israel, and unto all nations, kindreds, tongues and people, and shall bring out of them unto Jesus many souls, that their desire may be fulfilled, and also because of the convincing power of God which is in them."The reality is, that if the Three Nephites were making converts during the time of the "apostasy" then the church had to be in existence and functioning, because they were continually conferring the priesthood and perpetuating the church organization in all nations. This creates a severe problem for the claims of a "restoration" of an organization that had not disappeared, but was functioning throughout every nation in the world. Exactly what "Scripture" were the Three Nephites using in the church? The Book of Mormon was buried in the Hill Cummorah, unless they had copies of the original . They would have required hundreds or thousands of copies to use in every nation of the world, and why was there not even one copy preserved somewhere in the world, since the church would have existed right up until the day that Joseph Smith "restored" it?. Were they using an uncorrupted copy of the original Bible, and if they were, why wasn't at least one copy of that book preserved? The claims of the necessity of a restoration contradict the fact that the Mormon believers in those nations simply needed to send out missionaries to their own people. All Joseph Smith had to do was find the Mormon church in America and join the organization. So, where was that church located? That brings up the real issue, which is the same as that presented by the claims of the church that the Mormon gospel was the message of the New Testament church. There is no evidence to support that claim, just as there is no evidence that the Mormon gospel was preached in every nation of the world during the time of the Three Nephites. The Mormon church has had 178 years to present evidence of three major historical events: (1) the preaching of the Mormon gospel message in the New Testament church, and (2) the total apostasy of the church, and (3) the preaching by the apostle John and the Three Nephites in every nation of the world during the time of the apostasy. The Mormon church has been unable to present the historical evidence that would confirm any of those claims, just like there is no Book of Mormon history and no Book of Mormon archaeology. There was a second question that I asked, and that was why the apostle John did not preserve the original content of the Bible, claimed to have been removed by the "corrupt Catholic Priests"? He didn't think to do so or he didn't have the power? It is claimed that He had the priesthood, so what was the problem? But the real question is, why did God preserve the Book of Mormon as a record of history in the Americas, knowing that it would be needed so Joseph Smith could restore the church, but utterly failed to preserve the Old and New Testaments as a record of His chosen people, the ministry of Jesus Christ to them in their own land and the establishment of the New Testament church? Did He forget that the apostle John was in the earth and could have preserved the record? There appears to have been a total failure on the part of God, the apostle John and the Three Nephites to have accomplished even a basic preservation of the truth of the Bible. Again, God seems to have been the architect of the conditions under which the Bible underwent its massive changes resulting in the removal of the Mormon gospel message from its pages. But, He was also unable to preserve the translation of the first 116 pages of the Book of Mormon, which were lost because of Joseph Smith's disobedience. Again, the issues are the claims of a universal apostasy and rewritten Bible, made by the Mormon church that it has been unable to support since its inception. As I have noted in other replies, there are a number of revelations claimed to have been received by the Mormon prophets, that to accept them as true revelations make God into a liar. The claim by Joseph Smith and all future prophets that there was a complete apostasy which affected every single human being on earth for 1400-1500 years, is one of those revelations that makes God to be a liar and Jesus Christ as well. You would have to admit that during the time that the apostles were alive, the New Testament represented the true church and the Scripture that was written during the Old Testament period and during the time of the ministry of Jesus Christ and the apostles was accepted by them as being true, since it could not have been changed by the Catholic church which did not exist for hundreds of years. The first question I have is, When God speaks, does He speak the truth or does He lie? Then, as a consequence, If God spoke the gospel message , did it accomplish the goal for which it was intended? God seems to think so, but the apostles of the Mormon church seem to believe that His word failed. Is the statement of God on the subject authoritative or not? Was the gospel spoken and did it accomplish what God intended? If you answer no, then God is unable to accomplish His intent. If you answer yes, then during the 1400 years after the apostasy God must not have had any intent in relation to the preaching of the gospel, since no one believed, according to your statement. So the apostle John and the Three Nephites must have preached a pointless message to a pointless end. But God seems to have a different opinion in relation to His words: "For as the rain cometh down, and the snow from heaven, and returneth not thither, but watereth the earth, and maketh it bring forth and bud, that it may give seed to the sower, and bread to the eater: So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it."The second question I have is, When Jesus Christ speaks does He speak the truth or does He lie? "And I say also unto thee, That thou are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall nt prevail against it."Apparently Apostle Orson Pratt believed that Jesus Christ lied, because he claimed that the kingdoms of this world (which are the kingdoms of Satan) prevailed against the church and it ceased to exist, requiring the "restoration". There are huge problems for the Mormon church in the attempt to provide a foundation for the claim of a complete apostasy, the greatest problem being that God and Jesus Christ said it would not happen. None of the verses that you have quoted present or state that there would be a complete and total apostasy. There have always been apostates, Cain being the first. There are apostates today and there are apostates from the Mormon church as well, even though you have prophets and apostles. Jesus Christ said, in relation to the greatest apostasy before His second coming, the following: "For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; inasmuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.During the period of the greatest tribulation and apostasy on earth, Jesus Christ has His elect in all the earth, from the "four winds". God said that His words will accomplish what they have been given to do and Jesus Christ said that His church would not fail and that He has His elect all over the world. I will accept their testimony as being true over any statement of Joseph Smith to the contrary or any subsequent individual claiming to be a prophet. You stated the following: "So the process of the restoration of all things as predicted starts around the renascence with more enlightened men upon whom the Spirit of the Lord acted, such as Martin Luther, Calvin, Wycliff and may others (some of them were even killed) that somehow prepared the world for the restoration until Joseph Smith was called by God."Just how you consider the proponents of the Reformation to be those who prepared the way for Joseph Smith is a mystery to me, since the gospel and doctrines that they taught are in complete opposition to Mormon doctrine. The Reformers were, for the most part, former members of the Catholic church which they were trying to reform by effecting a return to biblical doctrine. Joseph Smith states the case against them in his "First Vision" where he condemns them and the doctrines that they taught in no uncertain terms: "I was answered that I must join none of them, for they were all wrong; and the Personage who addressed me said that all their creeds were an abomination in his sight; that those professors were all corrupt; that: "they draw near to me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me, they teach for doctrines the commandments of men, having a form of godliness, but they deny the power thereof."The attempt to connect the reformers as Joseph Smith's helpers is simply not acceptable. I find your attempt to rewrite the Joseph Smith history to be very interesting; not accurate, but interesting because of its total inaccuracies. Your explanation of why the church was not restored by him during the Middle Ages or the Renaissance is just an incredible fiction. History is what it was, not what you think it could have been or would have been under different conditions, since there were no different conditions. The issues surrounding Joseph Smith's murder go far beyond simple religious differences. There are also social, political, moral and character issues that all culminate in the actions of that night. Yes, there were issues of persecution against Mormons, but those were not the only issues. The precipitating catalyst that was the final factor in bringing about his death, was the fact that he abused his position as mayor by ordering, with the consent of the city council, the illegal destruction of the printing press of the Nauvoo Expositor. Presuming that his authority as a religious leader allowed him to extend that authority to the political arena sealed his eventual fate. It did not help matters any, that the Mormon leadership and Joseph Smith called the publisher of the Nauvoo Expositor, Austin Cowles, a liar when he published the charge that the Mormon church was teaching and practicing polygamy. Since that was the actual truth, when Joseph Smith denied the reality, then it was Mormon leadership and Joseph Smith who were the liars, claiming that the truth was a lie and the lie was the truth, something that was deeply ingrained in the character of Joseph Smith himself. Those actions, coupled with his desire to become president of the United States, the proclamation of himself as king over the Immediate House of Israel and the Council of 50 that he had organized, his preoccupation with his self-proclaimed position as Lieutentant-General of the Nauvoo Legion and his attempt to obtain an appointment by the United States Senate and House of Representatives as the head of a 100,000 man army said to be for the protection of persons in Oregon, Texas and other portions of the Untied States, all reveal the character of a man who was setting himself up for an eventual fall because of an inflated ego. Joseph Smith was serious about the presidency, stating, "If you wish to accomplish this, you must send every man in the city who is able to speak in public throughout the land to electioneer. . . . There is oratory enough in the Church to carry me into the presidential chair the first slide," History of the Church, vol. 6, p. 188. Believing himself to be very well politically positioned, important and well-known in the rest of the nation, he also said, "When I get hold of the Eastern papers, and see how popular I am, I am afraid myself that I shall be elected . . ," History of the Church, vol. 6, p. 243. The hope was that Joseph Smith could be elected president of the United States and that the majority of those who voted for him could be converted to Mormon belief which would then allow the government to be changed into a theocracy with Joseph Smith as the supreme head, and the establishment of the Kingdom in the United States. If that was not successful, then it was anticipated that the Saints would go to Texas where a separate kingdom and country would be established there. The death of Joseph Smith ended any plan that was in progress and precipitated the move to Utah where it was anticipated a separate country would be formed, allowing a Mormon theocracy to be established with Brigham Young as the first supreme ruler. Mormon leadership did not anticipate the outcome of the Civil War, that solidified the Union, preventing any further attempt at secession by states or territories, which ended the plan to establish a separate Mormon country in Utah, even though church leadership acted as though they were not accountable to governmental authority. That is the course that the Mormon church originally wished to go and would still go today if it were possible. I presume that your comment about "the restoration of all things," refers to Acts 3:19-21, which you define as the restoration of the Mormon church by Joseph Smith, which is the same claim made in 2 Nephi 3. However, like another verse that Mormons use, there is one little word that is ignored and that word is "all". All - as in everything - as prophesied "since the word began," vs. 21. The establishment of the Mormon church hardly represents the restoration of "all" things, even using the most creative imagination. It is also claimed that the prophet to be raised up, Acts 3:22, 23, is Joseph Smith, also corresponding to what he wrote about himself in 2 Nephi 3, by which he appropriated to himself the prophesies rightfully the possession of the Messiah, Jesus Christ. What the prophets prophesied was the restoration of the earth to its Edenic state and the establishment of the Millennial Kingdom of the Messiah, which is the 1,000 year earthly reign of Jesus Christ from Jerusalem. It is the transformation of the earth by the power of God and the perfect governmental reign of Jesus Christ that is the restoration of all things, which has absolutely nothing to do with the Mormon church or Joseph Smith. As I have noted before, your test for truth is flawed because it is a self-fulfilling criteria that only allows for one pre-determined outcome. In the absence of that outcome, it is then presumed that the person is not sincere and does not have a broken heart, which allows you to ignore the conclusion because it does not conform to your "testimony". In order to apply your test, then I must first acknowledge that the Book of Mormon is a reliable source of truth and that Moroni 10:5 is a valid means to determine truth, and I must have already accepted the definition of God presented by the Mormon church in order to offer prayers to Him - in faith already believing that He will answer in the positive as the verse states. It is those very criteria that need to be tested. It is an invalid test to use the conclusion as the means to determine that conclusion. The Bible does not use the same test in relation to itself, and it makes no claim that a person should apply the test to any other statement of religious belief. Your own conclusion is not based on any criteria of truth, but on your feelings about what you wish to be truth, which makes you and your emotional reaction to be the determinant of truth to the exclusion of any other criteria. The Mormon Challenge Wednesday, September 17 Hi Gary, You have written: "In Orthodox theology, it is Jesus Christ who is the mediator, not the church that He is building. The church is composed of those who have been mediated by Him, not composed of a physical organization of offices and duties by which the organization mediates faith toward God and through which exaltation can be accomplished."Comments: You are definitely contradicting yourself as you said you read the Book of Mormon and you seem be eager to demonstrate that you know the LDS Doctrine. You also contradict the Bible. If you read any of the LDS Standard Works you see that it teaches that only Christ and through Him and only Him men, LDS or not, can come to the Father. Here are some examples that you probably missed: 2 Ne. 25: 26 And we talk of Christ, we rejoice in Christ, we preach of Christ, we prophesy of Christ, and we write according to our prophecies, that our children may know to what source they may look for a remission of their sins.I have added some highlight to make it ease to read. As you can see, there is nothing between us and the Savior Jesus Christ, only our sins stand between us and the Savior. Jesus Christ is infinitely gracious and full of mercy that He organized His Church to help men to come unto Him. And, rather than been and intermediary, the Church is a conduit that provides all the authority and ordinances and teachings to perfect us, little by little until we reach the fullness of the stature of Christ as Paul says. Furthermore, you contradict the Bible when you dismiss the need for an organization. See this: Ephesian 4:11-13 And he gave some, apostles and some, prophets, and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ: Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ: Paus says that Jesus called apostles, prophets, evangelists, etc. to perfect the saints. In fact, Paul is describing the organization of the early Chuch of Christ. Can you, in your "orthodox" world, find any organization that has apostles and prophets today, which are called with the authority of our High Priest of the order of Melchizedek (Jesus Christ)? So, look hard, because if you cannot find what Paul is describing in the world today, then what you call "orthodox" christianity cannot, in no way, perfect the saints until they reach the stature of the fulness of Christ (The organization today don't even refer to their members as saints). They don't have apostles, prophets, etc. called, as Paul says, by Christ. You may find preachers, well or not well intentioned that preach the Bible. However, they took upon themselves to preach after reading the Bible, which is not the same as what Paul says. So, by this you know that there is a need for a true church organized as it was by Christ Himself in the meridian of times. Consider the subsequent verse of that scripture by Paul: Ephesian 4:14 That henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, .... Judging by the shear number of Bible Christian denominations, I'd say that people are like children today, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine. You say your interpretation of the Bible is the absolute correct one because it is "orthodox". The other denominations say their interpretation are the most accurate. There are other Bible Christian denominations that are even more radical. How can the saints be perfected amid such a confusion? Furthermore, if one was to accept your arguments that your are the "orthodox" one, aren't you been and intermediary? Also, have you asked God whether your othodoxy is the truth? Or, you have just convinced yourself of it? To know the answer of what is the truth church of Christ that will perfect you to the fullness of the stature of Christ you need to go straight to the source of all truth, the Father, and ask Him in the name of Jesus Christ with all humility. I have no doubt He will give you an answer. On Doctrine Reply I am aware that Jesus Christ is the only mediator for sin and that the Mormon church teaches that doctrine. But you are missing the point of my comment entirely. That mediation can only occur within and through the Mormon church, because you must be a member of the Mormon church by baptism to receive the benefits of the priesthood that allows the mediation of Jesus Christ to become effective. The church is an intermediary between you and Jesus Christ. That is why I said previously: "Your church organization acts as a mediator between you and the attainment of your spiritual quest, because it is either a barrier or a doorway for your faith; it is a barrier if you exercise your faith outside of membership in the organization, or it is a doorway if you are a member through baptism. You first accept Joseph Smith as the prophet of the restoration, then the Mormon church and all of its doctrines and necessary rules of performance, of which belief and faith in Jesus Christ is only one of many."If you choose to leave the Mormon church, you are judged a heretic and are damned. That is not a judgment based on a lack of repentance or that your sins have not been forgiven, but the fact that you have rejected the intermediary physical organization of the Mormon church of which you must affirm and belong, and through which you qualify for forgiveness, so that only then can your sins to be remitted by Jesus Christ. The message of the Mormon church and its missionaries is not just that Jesus Christ can remit sins as a result of repentance and that a person should do that. The missionary cannot simply then walk away after telling a person that they can do that in their own church. The person cannot do that in their own church, because all churches are said to be apostate except for the Mormon church. What they and the church mean is that a person must join the Mormon church in order that repentance and the remission of sins can become effective. Remission of sins, as a result of repentance, will only be extended to those individuals who accept and become members of the Mormon church - repentance under any other circumstances or in any other church organization or structure is invalid. Joseph Smith said the following: ". . . whosoever belongeth to my church need not fear, for such shall inherit the kingdom of heaven." Doctrine and Covenants 10:55Apostle Mark E Peterson said: "Salvation is in the church, and of the church, and is obtained only through the church." General Conference, April 8, 1973, Deseret News, "Church News", April 14, 1973Apostle Bruce McConkie wrote: "There is no salvation outside the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints." Mormon Doctrine, p. 670You are using the Book of Mormon to back your claim about the fact that only through Jesus Christ can you come to the Father, and that Jesus Christ is the only Mediator, which is absolutely correct. But what you do not understand is that the gospel message in the Book of Mormon is radically different from the gospel message in the Mormon church today. The very elements that constitute the Mormon gospel message today are the very ones that the church claims are missing from the Bible, but they are also missing in the Book of Mormon as well, and the key element that is missing is the claim that a person must be a member of the Mormon church for the elements of the gospel message to be effective, and that includes repentance and the remission of sins by Jesus Christ. The reason for that is the fact that Joseph Smith took his information from the Bible when writing the Book of Mormon, and then after he established the church, he changed the meaning of and added to the doctrines that were originally taught in that book. I noted the following in a reply to another individual: "I would agree that the Book of Mormon contains what is said to be the fullness of the Mormon gospel message as claimed by Joseph Smith, and if 3 Nephi 27:13-21 were the only elements of that gospel taught by the Mormon church today, then there would be no discussion as to whether the Book of Mormon represents the Mormon gospel. But, as you know, that passage does not represent the fullness of the Mormon gospel message as taught in the church since its inception and as taught today."I am not sure that you understand that there is a difference between the Book of Mormon gospel message and the associated terminology, and the current Mormon gospel message and associated terminology. Just as Mormon and Orthodox terminology use the same words with different definitions applied to those words, the same is in relation to the Book of Mormon and current Mormon doctrine. Changing definitions is one of the hallmarks of the Living Prophet, especially Joseph Smith. In your attempt to justify the existence of prophets and apostles in the church today, you intimate that they exist having the authority of the Melchizedek priesthood. That is the specific problem and the very reason that I have said that the Mormon church is the intermediary between you and Jesus Christ. The Mormon church claims that it is the only organization that can confer the priesthood to you, and without it there is no exaltation for you regardless of whether your sins have been forgiven or not. Without the priesthood, you are the same as any other unbelieving Gentile and will end up in the Telestial or Terrestrial kingdom, after you pay for your sins in spirit prison, but that is the best you can do. Even non-believers can end up in one of those two levels of heaven, even without repentance in this life. There is a difference between General Salvation, which is resurrection that every single human being will experience, either to the Telestial of Terrestial levels of heaven, as opposed to Individual Salvation by which you obtain exaltation to the Celestial heaven and godhood, which can only be obtained through membership in the Mormon church and following the precepts of the changing gospel message that it presents at any particular time, and by the specific works of obedience that you do, that are changeable also. "The first effect [of the atonement] is to secure to all mankind alike, exemption from the penalty of the fall, thus, providing a plan of General Salvation. The second effect is to open a way for Individual Salvation whereby mankind may secure remission of personal sins. As these sins are the result of individual acts, it is just that forgiveness for them should be conditioned on individual compliance with prescribed requirement - obedience to the laws and ordinances of the gospel."I don't think you realize just how far your prophets and apostles have gone. But when they claim that Joseph Smith can forgive sins and makes the decision on who can enter heaven, then heresy has definitely asserted its day. In answer to your comment and question about the apostle Paul, prophets and apostles and your claim that the Mormon church is based on the New Testament church, I will ask you the following: 1. Where, in the Book of Mormon or the New Testament, does it say that the believers, whether they be prophets or apostles, were given the authority of the priesthood - either the Aaronic or the Melchizedek? 2. Where does the Book of Mormon or the New Testament say that a person must be a member of an organization to know God or have sins remitted by Jesus Christ? 3. Where does the Book of Mormon or the New Testament refer to the following ordinances and teachings of the Mormon church, such as: - a temple where Christians went to participate in certain endowment rites, - marriage for time and/or eternity, - the necessity of marriage in the temple for a person to be exalted, - plural marriage necessary for exaltation (still the standard although the command is not followed), - exaltation to godhood, - endowments, - secret ceremonies in the temple, - secret passwords in order to enter heaven, - secret handshakes and tokens, - penalties for revealing the secret initiation rites to Gentiles, - special undergarments worn for a lifetime, - an official and specific name for the church, - Jesus Christ and God are personages of tabernacle, - baptism for the dead (sorry - 1 Corinthians 15:16, 29 does not establish that doctrine), - no paid ministry in the church? 4. Where does the Book of Mormon or the New Testament mention the office of President, the First Presidency, the Quorum of Twelve Apostles, First Quorum of the Seventy, Presiding Bishopric and 1st and 2nd Counselor, General Authorities, Regional Representative, Stakes, Stake Presidency, Stake President, High Council, Stake Patriarch, High Priest's Quorum, Wards, Ward Bishopric, Quorum of Seventy, Elder's Quorum, Priest's Quorum, Teacher's Quorum, Deacon's Quorum? 5. Where does the Book of Mormon or the Bible present the examples of 12 year-old boys as Aaronic priests who are referred to as Deacons, "the husbands of one wife, ruling their children and their own houses well," 1 Timothy 3:12? 6. Where does the Book of Mormon or the Bible teach that every worthy male can be an Aaronic priest, and, when qualified, can become a Melchizedek priest? I don't think you want to use apostle Orson Pratt's argument that the number of splinter groups determines the validity of Orthodox theology, because it is an issue with which you must also deal in relation to the Mormon church. Upon the death of Joseph Smith, the Mormon church split into two major groups, the LDS and the RLDS (now the Community of Christ), and the RLDS even had the manuscript to his Inspired Version of the Bible. There were other smaller groups as well. I seem to remember that today there are in the neighborhood of 200 Mormon splinter groups, each one claiming that they are the true church. I know the argument looks and feels good, but I don't use it against the Mormon church and you should not use it either, because it will take you down a road that you do not wish to go, and to an erroneous conclusion based on a false criteria. The Mormon church has no control over any splinter group, and Orthodox belief does not guarantee that people will not create their own systems of belief and spawn numerous heresies and false teachings, as Jesus Christ said would happen. If you claim that splinter groups invalidate Orthodox belief, then they also invalidate Mormon belief. That is where your argument takes you, and like I said, I don't think you really want to take that road. I am not sure how you conclude that I am establishing myself as an intermediary since I have not asserted any standards that are not part of the gospel message found in the Bible. As the above list represents, the Mormon church has set up an organization and set of standards that you cannot find in the Bible, no matter how hard you try and are also conspicuously absent in the Book of Mormon as well. The Mormon church organization and the gospel message that it proclaims are the products of your prophets, not the Book of Mormon and not the Bible. The Mormon Challenge Wednesday, September 17 Hi Gary, You've written: "You believe that the good things you do, in relation to following the precepts of the church, commend you to God and make up for the sins you commit during your life."Comments: With all respect but your showing you really don't understand LDS doctrine. LDS doctrine holds that there is nothing man can do on his own to have remission for his sins other than the atonement of Jesus Christ. Man cannot be perfected without the atonement of Christ. As I have pointed out and documented in another message, there is no other name under the heaven through which we can be saved. However, what you fail to understand is that the atonement of Christ has no effect on anyone if that person doesn't exercise faith and repents of his/her sins. Christ will NOT save you IN your sins. He will, however, save you from your sins provided you exercise faith in Him and repent of them. Saving you from your sins means that your sins have been paid for by the blood of Christ, provided you repent from them. As the book of James shows: James 2: 18, 20, 26 18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works. (Remember you said you knew the difference between belief and faith. Faith is an active principle, according to James, you exercise faith by repenting from your sins and doing good works.) The sacrifice of Jesus Christ has no effect if you don't repent of your sins. That is the condition for mercy to have effect. On Doctrine Reply Perhaps I was not clear regarding my statement because I did not include the documentation on that point. Jesus Christ remits your sins based on repentance, but that remission is conditional, not only on your repentance but on your membership in the Mormon church and the performance of your works as well. If you fail to accomplish any one or more of those three requirements, then your sins will not be remitted. I quoted apostle James Talmage in a previous reply, but here it is again: "The first effect [of the atonement] is to secure to all mankind alike, exemption from the penalty of the fall, thus, providing a plan of General Salvation. The second effect is to open a way for Individual Salvation whereby mankind may secure remission of personal sins. As these sins are the result of individual acts, it is just that forgiveness for them should be conditioned on individual compliance with prescribed requirement - obedience to the laws and ordinances of the gospel."Apostle LeGrand Richards stated: "One common erroneous concept is that belief alone in the Lord Jesus Christ is the only requirement for salvation. . . Salvation comes through living the Lord's commandments and doing good works."Apostle Bruce McConkie wrote: "Full salvation is attained by virtue of knowledge, truth, righteousness, and all true principles. Many conditions must exist in order to make such salvation available to men. Without the atonement, the gospel, the priesthood, and the sealing power, there would be no salvation. Without continuous revelations, the ministering angels, the working of miracles, the prevalence of gifts of the spirit, there would be no salvation. If it had not been for Joseph Smith and the restoration there would be no salvation. There is no salvation outside The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints."The Mormon gospel is much more than repentance, because it includes the teaching that remission of sins, salvation and grace are all conditional based on membership in the Mormon church and the performance of your works. Your present life is a test, and consists of an act of repentance and then the accomplishment of meritorious acts of righteousness that are credited to your account, by which you are judged as to your worthiness to receive remission of your sins in the next life. Grace, as the measure of the level of your exaltation is determined by the quantity and quality of your works and is granted as a payment or salary for services performed as works. If your works do not meet the test, you have no remission of your sins and no exaltation, but you only have General Salvation, which is resurrection to the Telestial or Terrestrial Kingdom, and not to exaltation in the Celestial Kingdom. As a result, you have no guarantee or assurance that you have done what is required until the next life. "Grace is granted to men proportionally as they conform to the standards of personal righteousness that are part of the Gospel plan."I don't think you really comprehend the magnitude of control that the church and works have over your life and the impossible onus of performance that you must accomplish before your remission of sins can be effective, and all of those hurdles have been placed in your way by your Living Prophets. Perhaps you are not on the same page as the statements of your apostles and prophets, but I don't think you really understand what they are saying. If you wish to attain to your exaltation, you should not have any opinion on the matter that is different than what they have stated, so you must deal with the contradiction in relation to what you have said and what they have said. You should go back and re-read the section that I wrote, because I quoted the following: "For we labor diligently to write, to persuade our children, and also our brethren, to believe in Christ, and to be reconciled to God; for we know that it is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do."My comments were directed in relation to the aspects of grace, which the Mormon church has redefined to mean something other than what it is. Yes, Jesus Christ remits your sins based on repentance, but between your repentance and the obtaining of that remission of sins is a large gulf that must be bridged, and that cannot be accomplished without joining the Mormon church and is not completed until you demonstrate the perfection of the quality and quantity of your works at the end of your life, which is the point that the Mormon church claims that the book of James teaches. Mormon doctrine states that salvation leading to eternal life, is resurrection to exaltation, and is a result of works, while Orthodox theology states that works are a result of salvation, because in Orthodox theology salvation is a present possession defined differently than Mormon resurrection or exaltation. As I have noted before, Mormon doctrine states two types of salvation, which is actually redefined as resurrection: (1) GENERAL SALVATION, which is resurrection to the Telestial or first level of Heaven, for every single human being, but does not include repentance leading to the remission of sins. Perhaps some honorable people will make it to the Terrestrial or second level, but that does not include repentance leading to the remission of sins. (2) INDIVIDUAL SALVATION, by which only Mormons are resurrected to the Celestial or highest level of heaven and can include exaltation to godhood. But salvation, as applied to the second type of salvation being Individual Salvation, which is resurrection to exaltation that only Mormons can obtain, is not as a direct result of the atonement or of repentance, but is obtained as a result of your works, "after all we can do." Your membership in the church and your repentance place you in the category where exaltation is possible, but it is your works that determine whether you actually receive the remission of sins, attain to the Celestial Kingdom and your place within the three levels of the Celestial Kingdom, the highest being godhood. Doing all the works imposed by the church, that you believe give you merit and favor with God by which you earn your exaltation, is somehow referred to as being saved by grace. Instead of defining grace as the English language states as being receipt of unmerited favor from God, Mormons define grace as a meritorious reward for the performance of specific works of righteousness based on their own belief in inherent righteousness, which is a definition that turns grace on its head. Mormons use the same terms as found in the English language, but do not define them according to English language usage, but use the terms in the attempt to sound conventional, but apply radical and opposite definitions. There are no free gifts from God in Mormon doctrine and there is no free grace - so grace must be earned and it is a reward or payment for a lifetime of accomplishing qualifying works. For the Mormon church, the payment for grace is made through human works rather than the payment being made through the atonement of Jesus Christ by His death on the cross, by which He can offer actual grace by means of repentance and faith that is granted by God. As I noted in the section from which you quoted, "If Mormons wish conduct to be the standard, then they must also understand that absolute perfection of conduct is the actual standard, which is stated in the verse quoted above, because the qualification is "all we can do" which means that every possible constituent of conduct must be satisfied before grace can have any effect. There can be no failure in any aspect of life, whether it be spiritual or moral, because failure at any point invalidates the criteria of "all". There can be no lapse of effort at any point by which you do not accomplish perfection of performance in relation to the task at hand, whether it be prayer, study, obedience, church attendance or any other aspect of which your performance is a part. That is an onus that is impossible to bear and impossible to accomplish, which is why the Bible has a different criteria and is why the grace provided through Jesus Christ is actual grace rather than 'earned' grace which is no grace at all."The Mormon definition of grace is denied by the apostle Paul, who states: "Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;The apostle Paul also states the following, in relation to works and the claim that they are connected with righteousness as a qualifying factor: "For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness. Now to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.Joseph Smith stated in his revelation on polygamy that God said, "I, the Lord justified my servants, Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob; as also Moses, David, and Solomon, my servants, as touching the principle and doctrine of their having many wives, and concubines."So it is claimed that their action in relation to a law of command was the performance of a work of righteousness by which they were justified, which is what the apostle Paul denies: "Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified."This is the most conclusive statement by the apostle Paul: "Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace. And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work."The apostle Paul stated the standard that was reworded and changed in 2 Nephi 25:23, by Joseph Smith in which Joseph Smith redefined faith to be works and the gift of God to be the result of works and a claim to self worth. "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast."I am not sure how you are applying the term "saved" in relation to your statement that, "Christ will NOT save you IN your sins." If you are using that term in relation to Mormon salvation, then you contradict Mormon doctrine that defines salvation as resurrection. All human beings will be "saved" in Mormon doctrine, because they will all be resurrected, even the most reprehensible. If you are referring to "saved" in relation to Orthodox doctrine, then salvation is something completely different than resurrection. I would differ with your statement that "Christ will NOT save you IN your sins." That is precisely the reason that Jesus Christ died, rose from the dead and is Mediator between God and man as the priest of Melchizedek in relation to your sins, because prior to forgiveness you are in your sins. Because Mormon salvation is a future event, you are out of sin only at the point at which salvation occurs, which is the point of resurrection. But Orthodox salvation is a present possession and occurs at the point of repentance and the exercise of a faith that is granted by God, not a part of some inherent goodness of human beings that must be demonstrated through a system of works for remissions of sins to occur. In Orthodox theology, there is a difference between "being in sin" and committing sin. "Being in sin" is a state of being that is a result of the fall in which human beings cannot do anything but sin, which is the reason for the necessity of the atonement and is the meaning of the statements by David: "Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me. The wicked are estranged from the womb; they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies."Committing sin after salvation is a condition of disobedience, of which those sins are covered by the atonement. The entire atonement was effected while humanity was "in sin" from which they could not escape. "But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him. For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life. And not only so, but we also joy in god through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement."I know that the Mormon church does not consider the fall to be of a major significance to humanity apart from Adam and Eve. Even for them, the fall was a positive act, according to Mormon prophets and apostles, not an act of sin but an action of falling upward toward the goal of attaining their own godhood. In fact, it is said that it was necessary that they fall in order for them to bear children and experience physical death which was a necessary step on the road to exaltation, a point of doctrine not found in the Book of Mormon or the Bible. What that teaching represents is another example of a redefinition of terms, in which falling is actually ascending, sin is actually virtue and failure is passing the test. ". . . I never speak of the part Eve took in this fall as sin, nor do I accuse Adam of a sin. . . . it is not always a sin to transgress a law,"Apostle Bruce McConkie virtually expresses the same thought as president Joseph Fielding Smith, when he wrote: "It is possible to transgress a law without committing a sin as in the case of Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden. . . it is proper and according the scriptural pattern to speak of the transgression of Adam, but not the sin of Adam."Those are interesting quotes from a prophet and an apostle, since the Bible says something completely different. "Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law."The Mormon claim that the fall of Adam and Eve was a transgression but not a sin, and a fall upward instead of downward, makes the actions of judgment against them by God to be the acts of an unjust ogre, who metes out punishment for no reason. If Adam and Eve did not sin, then mankind does not sin either, and the atonement was a pointless act. The claim that Adam and Eve engaged in a transgression and not a sin is denied in the Book of Mormon and the Bible, and again, it is one of those doctrines that originated with the Living Prophet who changed the clear teaching in the Book of Mormon. So what is being taught about the necessity of the atonement is something quite different from that found in the Book of Mormon, that results in a different gospel message and foundation for that gospel. How can that be if the Book of Mormon represents the fullness of the gospel message? The command to you is to repent, but the condition for mercy to have effect is membership in the Mormon church, possession of the priesthood and the performance of works. Again, you do not appear to be on the same page as your prophets. |
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