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| CONVERSATIONS WITH A MORMON |
| The Bible Corrupted By Catholic Priests And Mary As A Virgin: A Mormon's Perspective |
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The Mormon Challenge Friday, April 18 "The Mormon church considers the Bible to have been changed by corrupt Catholic priests, " [Quote from statement by On Doctrine] If you are going to talk about us, please get your facts straight. The Catholic Church did a very good job of keeping the Bible almost correct. There priests were good men trying to do good work, but from time to time mistakes were made. thanks for your time On Doctrine Reply Apparently you do not believe that the Mormon church has taught that the Catholic church is the origin of the changes in the Bible that are claimed to have occurred, but actually attempted to prevent the changes from happening. That is quite a leap away from the historical position of the Mormon church. You only have to go to the Book of Mormon to read the first explanation: "And the angel of the Lord said unto me: Thou hast beheld that the book proceeded forth from the mouth of a Jew; and when it proceeded forth from the mouth of a Jew it contained the plainness of the gospel of the Lord, of whom the twelve apostles bear record; and they bear record according to the truth which is in the Lamb of God. Wherefore, these things go forth from the Jews in purity unto the Gentiles, according to the truth which is in God. And after they go forth by the hand of the twelve apostles of the lamb, from the Jews unto the Gentiles, thou seest the foundation of a great and abominable church, which is most abominable above all other churches; for behold, they have taken away from the gospel of the lamb many parts which are plain and most precious; and also many covenants of the Lord have they taken away. And all this have they done that they might pervert the right ways of the Lord, that they might blind the eyes and harden the hearts of the children of men. Wherefore, thou seest that after the book hath gone forth through the hands of the great and abominable church, that there are many plain and precious things taken away from the book, which is the book of the lamb of God. And after these plain and precious things were taken away it goeth forth unto all the nations of the Gentiles; and after it goeth forth unto all the nations of the Gentiles, yea, even across the many waters which thou hast seen with the Gentiles which have gone forth out of captivity, thou seest - because of the many plain and precious things which have been taken out of the book, which were plain unto the understanding of the children of men, according to the plainness which is in the Lamb of God - because of these things which are taken away out of the gospel of the Lamb, an exceeding great many do stumble, yea, insomuch that Satan hath great power over them."Jospeh Smith stated: "Ignorant translators, careless transcribers, or designing and corrupt priests have committed many errors."Apostle Orson Pratt stated: "The Bible has been robbed of its plainness; many sacred books having been lost, others rejected by the Romish Church, and what few we have left, were copied and recopied so many times, that it is admitted that almost every verse has been corrupted and mutilated to that degree that scarcely any two of them read alike."Joseph Fielding Smith, Jr., stated: "The early 'Apostate Fathers' did not think it was wrong to tamper with inspired scripture. If any scripture seemed to endanger their viewpoint, it was altered, transplanted or completely removed from the Biblical text."Again, you only need to look at the Book of Mormon to find that some very precious things have been removed and changed from the first edition printed in 1830. The following verses are examples of some very significant revisions that change completely the original meaning of the verses: 1830 Edition "And he said unto me: Behold, the virgin whom thou seest, is the mother of God, after the manner of the flesh." 1 Nephi 11:18, Book of Mormon, 1830 edition 1982 Edition "And he said unto me: Behold, the virgin whom thou seest, is the mother of the Son of God, after the manner of the flesh." 1 Nephi 11:18, Book of Mormon, 1982 edition 1830 Edition "And the angel said unto me: Behold the Lamb of God, yea, even the Eternal Father! Knowest thou the meaning of the tree which thy father saw?" 1 Nephi 11:21, Book of Mormon, 1830 edition 1982 Edition "And the angel said unto me: Behold the Lamb of God, yea, even the Son of the Eternal Father! Knowest thou the meaning of the tree which thy father saw?" 1 Nephi 11:21, Book of Mormon, 1982 edition 1830 Edition "And it came to pass that the angel spake unto me again, saying: Look! And I looked and beheld the Lamb of God, that he was taken by the people; yea, the Everlasting God was judged of the world; and I saw and bear record." 1 Nephi 11:32, Book of Mormon, 1830 edition 1982 Edition "And it came to pass that the angel spake unto me again, saying: Look! And I looked and beheld the Lamb of God, that he was taken by the people; yea, the Son of the Everlasting God was judged of the world; and I saw and bear record." 1 Nephi 11:32, Book of Mormon, 1982 edition 1830 Edition "And the angel spake unto me, saying: These last records, which thou hast seen among the Gentiles, shall establish the truth of the first, which are of the twelve Apostles of the Lamb, and shall make known the plain and precious things which have been taken away from them; and shall make known to all kindreds, tongues, and people, that the Lamb of God is the Eternal Father and the Savior of the world; and that all men must come unto him, or they cannot be saved." 1 Nephi 13:40, Book of Mormon, 1830 edition 1982 Edition "And the angel spake unto me, saying: These last records, which thou hast seen among the Gentiles, shall establish the truth of the first, which are of the twelve Apostles of the Lamb, and shall make known the plain and precious things which have been taken away from them; and shall make known to all kindreds, tongues, and people, that the Lamb of God is the Son of the Eternal Father, and the Savior of the world; and that all men must come unto him, or they cannot be saved." 1 Nephi 13:40, Book of Mormon, 1924 edition From the very verses that it is claimed prove the unreliability of the Bible, the General Authorities removed the plain and precious knowledge that the Lamb of God (Jesus Christ) is the Eternal Father. Because Joseph Smith changed his definition of God and Jesus Christ from the modalism found in the Book of Mormon, it became necessary to change the revelation in the Book of Mormon to conform with the claims of the prophet instead of the claims of the prophet conforming with the Book of Mormon. I do not claim to be the most knowledgeable person on the issue, however I am not ill-informed and I can read the statements of Mormon leaders that are part of the historical record which speak directly to the issue. The records are available, so you can do your own research on the matter. The Mormon Challenge Friday, April 18 "The Biblical Jesus Christ exists as co-equal with the Father from eternity past. The Mormon Jesus Christ is a spirit child of the heavenly father and one of his wives and his physical body was a result of a sexual union of the heavenly father and Mary who is one of the spirit children of the heavenly father. So the heavenly father had an incestuous relationship with one of his own daughters in order to produce the temporal (physical) body of Jesus Christ into which his spirit entered." [Quote from statement by On Doctrine] You really need to do a better indepth study of this one. Marry was a virgin when Christ was born. As you stude, remember that NATURAL doen not mean SEXUAL liks some want you to believe. thanks for yout time On Doctrine Reply You are accepting a redefinition of the meaning of the English language in order to circumvent the problem. The Presidents and General Authorities have stated that Jesus Christ was fathered in the same manner as any other human child, in a "literal" and "natural" manner, which is a literal and natural sexual relationship. If it is considered that those terms do not mean what they are defined to be, then the Mormon church needs to be up front and explain the reason it is using standard terminology with definitions unique only to itself. Mormon Prophets and General Authorities have made it perfectly clear that Jesus Christ was fathered in a sexual manner, the same as every other human being, and that the father was god. "The question has been, and is often, asked, who it was that begat the Son of the Virgin Mary. The infidel world have concluded that if what the Apostles wrote about this father and mother be true, and the present marriage discipline acknowledged by Christendom be correct, then Christians must believe that God is the father of an illegitimate son, in the person of Jesus Christ! The infidel fraternity teach that to their disciples. I will tell you how it is. Our Father in Heaven begat all the spirits that ever were, or ever will be, upon this earth; and they were born spirits in the eternal world. Then the Lord by His power and wisdom organized the mortal tabernacle of man. We were made first spiritual, and afterwards temporal. . . . When the Virgin Mary conceived the child Jesus, the Father had begotten him in his own likeness. He was not begotten by the Holy Ghost. And who is the Father? He is the first of the human family; and when he took a tabernacle, it was begotten by his Father in heaven, after the same manner as the tabernacles of Cain, Abel, and the rest of the sons and daughters of Adam and Eve; from the fruits of the earth the first earthly tabernacles were originated by the Father, and so on in succession." Prophet Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, Vol. 1, pp. 50, 51. "Let us take up a point of Scripture, and we will try to agree with Mr. B [Baptist], and take him along with us a few moments, and find out where we disagree. We read in the Bible many things pertaining to life and salvation. We first begin to read that Jesus came in the flesh. Now to touch that point, which I do not purpose to do but slightly this morning, I am sure we shall disagree at the commencement. But suppose I examine that, a moment. The New Testament tells me that the Father gave His only-begotten Son a ransom for the sins of the world. Do you believe that, brother B? Do you believe that Jesus Christ is the only-begotten Son of the Father? 'Yes.' do you believe the Son was begotten by the Father, as the Apostles said he was? Here I shall have to disagree with you, to begin with; for I believe the Father came down from heaven, as the Apostles said he did, and begat the Saviour of the world; for he is the ONLY-begotten of the Father, which could not be if the Gather did not actually beget him in person. . . . I believe He has a tabernacle, and begat Jesus Christ in His express image and likeness, because the Bible expressly declares it." Prophet Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, Vol. 1, p. 238 "Things were first created spiritually, the Father actually begat the spirits, and they were brought forth and lived with Him. Then He commenced the work of creating earthly tabernacles, precisely as He had been created in this flesh himself... When the time came that His firstborn, the Saviour, should come into the world and take a tabernacle, the Father came himself and favoured that spirit with a tabernacle instead of letting any other man do it. The Saviour was begotten by the Father of His spirit, by the same Being who is the Father of our spirits, and that is all the organic difference between Jesus Christ and you and me." Prophet Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, Vol. 4, p. 218 "The man Joseph, the husband of Mary, did not, that we know of, have more than one wife, but Mary the wife of Joseph had another husband. On this account infidels have called the Savior a bastard. This is merely human opinion upon one of the inscrutable doings of the Almighty. That very babe that was cradled in the manger, was begotten, not by Joseph, the husband of Mary, but by another Being. Do you inquire by whom? He was begotten by God our Heavenly Father." Prophet Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, Vol. 11, p. 268 "We bow to Him as the veritable Son of the living God in the fullest sense of he hallowed term. As Mary was His saintly mother, so the Might God was His everlasting and literal Father. He was 'the only begotten' of Deity, in the flesh, to die that man may live. This we once more affirm and declare as a glorious truth and a fundamental of 'Mormon' faith." Messages of the First Presidency, Vol. 4, pp. 318-319 "God the Father is a perfected, glorified, holy Man, an immortal Personage. And Christ was born into the world as the literal Son of this Holy Being; he was born in the same personal, real, and literal sense that any mortal son is born to a mortal father. There is nothing figurative about his paternity; he was begotten, conceived and born in the normal and natural course of events, for he is the Son of God, and that designation means what it says." Mormon Doctrine, Bruce. R. McConkie, p. 742 "And so it is with the Eternal Father and the mortal birth of the Eternal Son. The Father is a Father is a Father; he is not a spirit essence or nothingness to which the name Father is figuratively applied. And the Son is a Son is a Son; he is not some transient emanation from a divine essence, but a literal, living offspring of an actual Father. . . . There is nothing figurative or hidden or beyond comprehension in our Lord's coming into mortality. He is the Son of God in the same sense and way that we are the sons of mortal fathers." The Promised Messiah, Bruce R. McConkie, pp. 468-469 "And so, in the final analysis it is the faithful saints, those who have testimonies of the truth and divinity of this great latter-day work, who declare our Lord's generation to the world. Their testimony is that Mary's son is God's Son; that he was conceived and begotten in the normal way; that he took upon himself mortality by the natural birth processes; that he inherited the power of mortality from his mother and the power of immortality from his Father - in consequence of all of which he was able to work out the infinite and eternal atonement." The Promised Messiah, Bruce R. McConkie, pp. 472-473 "That Child to be born of Mary was begotten of Elohim, the Eternal Father, not in violation of natural law but in accordance with a higher manifestation thereof, and, the offspring from that association of supreme sanctity, celestial Sireship, and pure though mortal maternity, was of right to be called the 'Son of the Highest.' In His nature would be combined the powers of Godhood with the capacity and possibilities of mortality; and this through the ordinary operation of the fundamental law of heredity, declared of God, demonstrated by science, and admitted by philosophy, that living beings shall propagate - after their kind. The Child Jesus was to inherit the physical, mental, and Spiritual traits, tendencies, and powers that characterized His parents - one immortal and glorified - God, the other human - woman." Jesus the Christ, James E. Talmage, p. 81 The Mormon church has also redefined the meaning of "virgin" to denote a difference between having sexual relations with a god as opposed to a human being. Given the definition, if Mary had sexual relations with a human man such as Joseph, then she was not a virgin, but if she had sexual relations with a human god, then she is still a virgin. That is not an acceptable differentiation by any legitimate standard. In Mormon theology God is defined as a literal man who, although exalted, is still human with a body and possessed of all of the human sexual organs and genetic material necessary to accomplish the act of procreation, which he has been accomplishing with his wives on his planet for millions of years and will continue to do on into eternity, and is the manner in which Mormons claim that the spirit of man is produced. God and his wives have literal sexual relations and his wives produce spiritual children through a literal process of birth. That is the point of having the father come to earth to procreate the temporal body of Jesus Christ, and at the point of the procreative act, Mary was no longer a virgin. There is also the issue regarding the claim that god and Mary were married - that they were husband and wife, a claim that was introduced in order to legitimize what was realized to be an immoral relationship. The concept of polygamy is first utilized in order to justify the actions of god in having sexual relations with a woman who was already considered to be married. If the terms "literal" and "natural" are said to mean something other than an actual, physical, sexual union of god with Mary, (such as a creative act) then no marriage would have been necessary and certainly no polygamous union. The fact that the Mormon church claims the existence of the marriage and the consequent polygamous union, validates the reality that the union was sexual and at the same time it was incestuous. Mary and Joseph were espoused to each other, which was considered to be the same as a marriage and required a bill of divorcement to dissolve. Brigham Young realized the difficulty and stated that Mary had two husbands - Joseph and god, so Mary engaged in polyandry which is having more than one husband at one time, something that is completely outside the parameters of the polygamy revelation. Was god married to Mary for a time only, or will she be the wife of god in her exalted state or have they been divorced? Will she continue to bear spiritual children with her father god or will she be the wife of Joseph or perhaps the wife of both god and Joseph for eternity? Mormon leadership have no legitimate answers for those questions, because they are not part of the foundational revelation of the Book of Mormon, but must be answered by a claim of direct revelation received by the Living Prophet. No such revelation has been received. The reality is, that the current claims regarding the paternity of Jesus Christ contradict directly the statement in the Book of Mormon and are in direct opposition to the claimed revelation given directly by god through the golden plates: "And behold, he shall be born of Mary, at Jerusalem which is the land of our forefathers, she being a virgin, a precious vessel, who shall be overshadowed and conceive by the power of the Holy Ghost, and bring forth a son, yea, even the Son of God."If Joseph Smith had not changed his original beliefs about the godhead, in which he considered the Holy Ghost to be simply a power, emanation or the mind of God, then there would be no difficulty in the book of Alma. But when he asserted that the Holy Ghost was an actual personage, then the problem becomes insurmountable. Since the Mormon church has accepted his pronouncement over the authoritative revelation in the Book of Mormon, then it is left with the difficulty of trying to circumvent the issue and that is the reason it has adopted the strategy of redefining the terms rather than accepting the Book of Mormon. If the church accepts the Book of Mormon, then it must reject Joseph Smith as being a true prophet, which would destroy the authority of the Presidency, and of course that is seen to be unacceptable, so it must reject the Book of Mormon which it considers to be the lesser problem, since the majority of current Mormon doctrines are not found in the Book of Mormon anyway. The Bible Corrupted By Catholic Priests And Mary As A Virgin: A Mormon's Perspective |
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